Herters 164 Powder Uses.

[arakboss]

I have an opportunity to buy some old powder for a decent price. A significant part of the batch is some Herters 164 Shotgun Powder. The interwebs suggest it is comparable to Herco (maybe a tad faster). Has anybody seen cartridge load data for this powder? If it really does compare to Herco it might be useful otherwise it might be garden sprinkles.

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[Happyguy]

I use the 164 that I have for pistol cartridges.

 

[arakboss]

I use the 164 that I have for pistol cartridges.

What is your source for load data?

 

[Richo877]

This guy on the shotgunworld.com forum 10 years ago said its just repackaged nobel powder so then herters 164 is just nobel 64 with a different label

Herter's 160, 162, 164 Shotgun load data

www.shotgunworld.com

 

[arakboss]

This guy on the shotgunworld.com forum 10 years ago said its just repackaged nobel powder so then herters 164 is just nobel 64 with a different label

Herter's 160, 162, 164 Shotgun load data

www.shotgunworld.com

View attachment 1898324

I believe they did move from 160 numbers to 60 numbers and then to 80 numbers. They seemed to have kept the 0, 2 and 4 designations.

160, 162 and 164 became 60, 62 and 64 which then became 80, 82 and 84.

I found this chart which seems to indicate that the Nobel 84 series was similar to Herco. Advice on the internet suggested using Herco data minus 5%. That seems reasonable to me.





Source: https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4223

 

[arakboss]

I ended bringing home the Herter's 164 because the price was too good to pass up

The powder looks to be in fine shape especially for it's age. This powder is like the Elizabeth Hurley of shotgun powders

I will do a little more research before loading anything with it. Different sources seem to say it's a little faster or a little slower than Herco.

 

[arakboss]

While searching for some load data using IMR4831 in 308, I found this Lyman data, online, using Herco for cast bullets in 308. This might be a good way to use up some Herters #164 at the silhouette range

 

[arakboss]

I decided to load up a few more 40 S&W rnds with lighter charges just in case. This powder is bulky. A full to the brim case full of this powder weighs 10.4 grains. Yesterday I loaded up 10rnds with 6 grains and 10rnds with 6.5 grains. This morning I loaded up 5 with 5 grains and 5 with 5.5 grains. With all of these loads there is very little air space when using a 180gr bullet.

I will be testing these out tomorrow in Gen 4 G22. I will start with 5gr load and move up to 6.5gr load.

 

[arakboss]

Back from the range.

5.0 grains did not cycle the gun but all rounds fired and bullets exited the barrel

5.5 grains mostly cycled except for the last round stove piped.

6 grains cycled the gun perfectly and grouped the best.

6.5 grains was snappy and didn't group as well as the 6 grain load.

So 6 grains of the mystery powder topped off with a 180gr bullet works best.

I will use this info to try and formulate loads for other cartridges. I have roughly 5lbs of this many decades old powder to burn up.

 

[arakboss]

Based on the results I had with the #164 in 40 S&W, I'm going to rely on Unique data to try and load up some 9mm. The #164 seems to be faster than I thought it would be compared to Herco. I am going to load up a few 9mm rnds today and attempt another range trip early next week.

 

[red442joe]

I like Herco. I started reloading with a four pound jug for....9mm.
I have a nice working 115gr IDPA load.
Herco did not work well in 200gr castLSWC, 45acp.

Joe

 

[arakboss]

Just finished up loading 20rnds of 9mm with the mystery #164 powder.

The bullet is a plated 124gr hp from extreme.

I did 5rnds each in 4gr, 4.5gr, 5gr and 5.5gr. This is close to Unique data depending on who's data you go by.

I will start with the 4 grainers and work my way up.

Here is a photo of 5.5 grains of the #164 in the 9mm case on the left and 7.5 grains of Blue Dot in the 9mm case on the right. It seems to me the Blue Dot would be a compressed load at 7.5gr and 8gr was the max load.

 

[arakboss]

I am going to revisit the 40 S&W with #164 powder but with some true heavy weights. These are some 215gr .411 bullets, I picked up for super cheap from an estate sale. I ran this sample batch through a Lee .401 sizer. The crimp groove mostly disappeared but the lube stayed mostly intact. I am going to try these with 4.0gr, 4.5gr and maybe a few at 5gr of the #164 powder.

 

[red442joe]

I like heavy-for-caliber.
The recoil impulse is pleasing to me.

Joe

 

[red442joe]

Who's dies are you using? (I really only know Lee)
How much flare are you putting on the case?
How much are you seating to remove the flare?
How much are you crimping the finished round?
Have you slugged the barrel?

Slug the barrel.
Make up a dummy round.
Pull the dummy round boolit.
Compare pulled boolit from dummy round, to make sure it is at least one thousandth (.001) over bore size. I prefer one and a half thou (.0015), to two (.002). However.....finished round needs to pass plunk-test in your barrel.
Removing flare when seating, and swaging case at crimp can squish boolit resulting in a pulled boolit that is under bore size. Instant, massive, leading.

Joe

 

[red442joe]

I like the looks of those .411's.
You only sized them five thou-think about that.
Good the lube stayed, however....you can lube the entire boolit, and the whole length of the bore, and still get leading, if the boolit is undersize, or doesn't get pressure-slugged up to seal the bore.
The bevelled base means you don't have to flare the cases too much to prevent shaving when seating.
If you can't load long, case cap is limited, but that lets you work on case fill, mebbe finding accurate, quiet, sub-sonics.
I have a couple guns that prefer heavy subs for accuracy, and I prefer heavy for cal in sub-compact pistols.

Joe

 

[red442joe]

Oh, don't be surprized if your swaged boolits just don't have the accuracy you want.
For some reason that seems to happen...

Joe

 

[arakboss]

Who's dies are you using? (I really only know Lee)
How much flare are you putting on the case?
How much are you seating to remove the flare?
How much are you crimping the finished round?
Have you slugged the barrel?

Slug the barrel.
Make up a dummy round.
Pull the dummy round boolit.
Compare pulled boolit from dummy round, to make sure it is at least one thousandth (.001) over bore size. I prefer one and a half thou (.0015), to two (.002). However.....finished round needs to pass plunk-test in your barrel.
Removing flare when seating, and swaging case at crimp can squish boolit resulting in a pulled boolit that is under bore size. Instant, massive, leading.

Joe

Lee dies.

Just enough flare not to shave lead

Seating is to crimp groove.

Lee Factory Crimp Die finishes them off.

The round in the photos is the dummy round.

 

[arakboss]

I will be throwing together a few more rounds of 38spl (with .355 bullets) later this morning. I will be using titegroup but I figure I might as well try a few with the mystery #164 powder as well. I will use Unique data to start with.

I have a lot of misc rounds to try out, so range time is going to have to pick up.

 

[arakboss]

I loaded up two 38spl rounds with 4 grains of mystery #164 powder and topped them off with 125gr cast dry lubed .358 bullets. That is the starting load for Unique powder and a 121gr cast bullet.