Thinking of buying a(nother) gun safe? Read this

[Kruel J]

4,000lbs and 8" of steel on each side - one of my pride and joy items made in 1911.

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As long as you never have to move it.

 

[lucusloc]

Who doesn't have issues these days? I'm not going to "keep up" by selling and buying new stuff all the time. My safe and camera have served me well for some years now.

General rule of thumb; wireless cameras all have security issues, but "cloud based" cameras are the worst of the lot. IP POE style cameras that talk to a base station/DVR are generally pretty good, especially if you run them over their own dedicated network and use open source firmware. Coax/cctv cameras are the best for local security but the options for open source firmware have become much more limited in recent years so it has become a bit more difficult to lock them down if you want to put the base station online. But they are still hands down the most secure if you do not plan on connecting it to the internet.

You don't have to change things every year, you just have to keep up on vulnerability updates. As with all things, if you outsource the management of the system you outsource the security too. If you want to be responsible for your own security you need a system that supports that responsibility, not removes it from you. I understand that these fancy cloud based solutions are super easy to set up and require basically no effort on the part of the consumer to do so, but that convenience comes with a price. In some cases that price is unauthorized people checking out your cameras and seeing what is going on whenever they feel like.

 

[Kruel J]

General rule of thumb; wireless cameras all have security issues, but "cloud based" cameras are the worst of the lot. IP POE style cameras that talk to a base station/DVR are generally pretty good, especially if you run them over their own dedicated network and use open source firmware. Coax/cctv cameras are the best for local security but the options for open source firmware have become much more limited in recent years so it has become a bit more difficult to lock them down if you want to put the base station online. But they are still hands down the most secure if you do not plan on connecting it to the internet.

You don't have to change things every year, you just have to keep up on vulnerability updates. As with all things, if you outsource the management of the system you outsource the security too. If you want to be responsible for your own security you need a system that supports that responsibility, not removes it from you. I understand that these fancy cloud based solutions are super easy to set up and require basically no effort on the part of the consumer to do so, but that convenience comes with a price. In some cases that price is unauthorized people checking out your cameras and seeing what is going on whenever they feel like.

Ok, I didn't really think my post would lead to this but...........

I don't pay for Ring camera cloud service. My cam is based only on motion. If it senses it, I get an alert on my phone and I check the cam. If sh**s going down I call the cops myself. One doesn't have to pay for Ring service or use the cloud to use their cams for basic security. The only downside is I can't record or go back and look at previous motion events. I haven't had a need to do so but that is the negative about not paying for cloud services.

I bought my Liberty before the stories came out, long before. I CHOSE the electronic lock so it would be easier for my wife to access it when I'm gone. I've had ZERO issues with it. Replaced the battery once in the last 4 years. Its a Colonial 30 with hot rod, lights and a few other upgrades. I saved my money for over a year to purchase it. I don't have the means or honestly the motivation to dump a $2500 safe because they gave out the code during an investigation. Same way I'm not going to dump my iPhone because Apple allowed the FBI in to some terrorist's device. I don't worry about life like that. Hell my info like almost everyone here is on the dark web. There is no way to stop it unless you never use banks, cards, have any accounts or loans or any other transactions. Just posting here on NWFA opens up risk of data breaches like any other web page. Nothing is that secure.

 

[toast]

No manufacturer installs a 5-button Simplex lock (like that V-Line container has) on a lightweight tin box. IMHO, if it has a Simplex, it is probably worth busting the budget. It'll hold its value in case you don't care to keep it the rest of your natural days.

In the 1990s, I bought two of these little safes from a desperation start-up company in Phelan, CA. They literally don't make 'em like this anymore (but they ought to). When the aerospace industry came out of its slump, the owner shut down the garage factory and went back to his career employment.

Solid, big enough to fit a couple of handguns, the safes weigh about 22 lbs each.They'll last a couple of lifetimes.

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This looks very similar to the Fort Knox Pistol Box, which weighs 20 pounds, has a Simplex lock, and is available for $299. Great product, albeit a bit pricey for what it is.

Amazon Link

 

[lucusloc]

Ok, I didn't really think my post would lead to this but...........

I don't pay for Ring camera cloud service. My cam is based only on motion. If it senses it, I get an alert on my phone and I check the cam. If sh**s going down I call the cops myself. One doesn't have to pay for Ring service or use the cloud to use their cams for basic security. The only downside is I can't record or go back and look at previous motion events. I haven't had a need to do so but that is the negative about not paying for cloud services.

I bought my Liberty before the stories came out, long before. I CHOSE the electronic lock so it would be easier for my wife to access it when I'm gone. I've had ZERO issues with it. Replaced the battery once in the last 4 years. Its a Colonial 30 with hot rod, lights and a few other upgrades. I saved my money for over a year to purchase it. I don't have the means or honestly the motivation to dump a $2500 safe because they gave out the code during an investigation. Same way I'm not going to dump my iPhone because Apple allowed the FBI in to some terrorist's device. I don't worry about life like that. Hell my info like almost everyone here is on the dark web. There is no way to stop it unless you never use banks, cards, have any accounts or loans or any other transactions. Just posting here on NWFA opens up risk of data breaches like any other web page. Nothing is that secure.

I am not telling you you have to change anything, you have already made up your mind on what is an acceptable risk for you. I am just posting information for others who are following along in this conversation so that they too can make an informed choice on what they use.

With that said, I do data/cyber security for my day job. I am well aware that most of your "private" public data is freely available on the web. This is one of the reasons it is important to minimize other streams of data that are out there. Just because you do not subscribe to other Ring services does not mean that data stream is not going through their infrastructure, and is not accessible by third parties. There are, for example, documented cases of hackers using Ring cameras to verify that owners are not home and using that information to target those homes for burglary. At the end of the day Ring is not a secure system. It is nearly equivalent to broadcasting your camera feed over the open internet. Most cloud based systems have similar security, because even major companies have not figure out how to fully secure cloud based infrastructure.

I am unaware of even one cloud based camera system that can pass basic cyber security benchmarks with full marks. No camera manufacturer has the know-how or inclination to spend money on that kind of security when the vast majority of consumers simply do not care that they are blasting their personal information out onto the internet. But this kind of cavalier attitude of "oh, most of my information is already out there, what is a little bit more?" makes the situation so much worse. Data like this gains value the more correlated data you have. A credit card number alone is of little utility to a bad actor and goes for pennies each. A CCN with a name and address is much more valuable. Start stacking on information like pin codes, DOB, mother's maiden name etc. and that data goes up in value by orders of magnitude, reaching into the 100s of dollars each, depending on what data is available. Even if all that data is out there separately the ability to tie it all together into one identity is immensely valuable, and this goes so far that hackers that get some correlated information will scour public records for more. They just need enough pieces to start the process and turn a few pennies worth of data into many dollars worth of data.

Camera feeds add a whole other level of security issues to that. If you can get into the feed and extract some kind of identifying information that can be tied to other information that can be used to physically target the premise for crimes, not just victimize the owner in the cyber realm. And just because you are not saving the data stream does not mean no one else taping that stream can't. Data is data, all it takes is a hard drive big enough to store it. And if they can tie that data stream to things like a physical address and other identifying information that could be worth bank on the data markets to the right people. Again, this is a know form of attack and seems to be on the rise as more bad actors get savvy to the possibilities a live camera feed offers. You can argue that this is a low probability attack now, but the trends indicate that argument will not hold water for long.

It would be wise to make your security decisions based on these future trends.

 

[Kruel J]

I am not telling you you have to change anything, you have already made up your mind on what is an acceptable risk for you. I am just posting information for others who are following along in this conversation so that they too can make an informed choice on what they use.

With that said, I do data/cyber security for my day job. I am well aware that most of your "private" public data is freely available on the web. This is one of the reasons it is important to minimize other streams of data that are out there. Just because you do not subscribe to other Ring services does not mean that data stream is not going through their infrastructure, and is not accessible by third parties. There are, for example, documented cases of hackers using Ring cameras to verify that owners are not home and using that information to target those homes for burglary. At the end of the day Ring is not a secure system. It is nearly equivalent to broadcasting your camera feed over the open internet. Most cloud based systems have similar security, because even major companies have not figure out how to fully secure cloud based infrastructure.

I am unaware of even one cloud based camera system that can pass basic cyber security benchmarks with full marks. No camera manufacturer has the know-how or inclination to spend money on that kind of security when the vast majority of consumers simply do not care that they are blasting their personal information out onto the internet. But this kind of cavalier attitude of "oh, most of my information is already out there, what is a little bit more?" makes the situation so much worse. Data like this gains value the more correlated data you have. A credit card number alone is of little utility to a bad actor and goes for pennies each. A CCN with a name and address is much more valuable. Start stacking on information like pin codes, DOB, mother's maiden name etc. and that data goes up in value by orders of magnitude, reaching into the 100s of dollars each, depending on what data is available. Even if all that data is out there separately the ability to tie it all together into one identity is immensely valuable, and this goes so far that hackers that get some correlated information will scour public records for more. They just need enough pieces to start the process and turn a few pennies worth of data into many dollars worth of data.

Camera feeds add a whole other level of security issues to that. If you can get into the feed and extract some kind of identifying information that can be tied to other information that can be used to physically target the premise for crimes, not just victimize the owner in the cyber realm. And just because you are not saving the data stream does not mean no one else taping that stream can't. Data is data, all it takes is a hard drive big enough to store it. And if they can tie that data stream to things like a physical address and other identifying information that could be worth bank on the data markets to the right people. Again, this is a know form of attack and seems to be on the rise as more bad actors get savvy to the possibilities a live camera feed offers. You can argue that this is a low probability attack now, but the trends indicate that argument will not hold water for long.

It would be wise to make your security decisions based on these future trends.

I think I'll just keep doing what I do. It works for me and I'm good with it. Thanks for the info.

 

[Sharkey]

My general philosophy is "fighting guns are 'in use' and do not belong in a safe." There are other safe storage options that do not delay access, and if you do not have other people to worry about in the house "safe storage" is nothing more than "safe stowage" somewhere out of the way. As for safes, I like stuff that is still somewhat quick to access so I can put away "in use" firearms when they are not in use, and the easier it is to do that the more consistently it will be done.

Past that, treat your home as the first line of defense. Make sure your windows are reinforced (there are polymer laminates that make them more or less "smash proof," at least for moderate amounts of time) and your doors are solid with multiple locking points. Make sure valuables (like guns) are not visible from the outside and the perimeter is well lit, preferably with conspicuous cameras at notable points on the outside. A secure home is far more valuable than a top of the line safe. Never putting the safe to the test because miscreants never want to test the dwelling it is contained in is better than finding out everything outside the safe has gone missing.

Excellent advise. Security should be layered. A dog is a good early warning alarm. Cameras, alarms, not telling your plans on social media, and good neighbors often home are great ways to lower risk. I have 2 safes now. Maybe a third one soon. I figured that buys me more time than just having one big safe. If I think I will need it, it isn't locked up. A shotgun, rifle, and 2 guns are usually out.

 

[Alexx1401]

Ok, I didn't really think my post would lead to this but...........

I don't pay for Ring camera cloud service. My cam is based only on motion. If it senses it, I get an alert on my phone and I check the cam. If sh**s going down I call the cops myself. One doesn't have to pay for Ring service or use the cloud to use their cams for basic security. The only downside is I can't record or go back and look at previous motion events. I haven't had a need to do so but that is the negative about not paying for cloud services.

I bought my Liberty before the stories came out, long before. I CHOSE the electronic lock so it would be easier for my wife to access it when I'm gone. I've had ZERO issues with it. Replaced the battery once in the last 4 years. Its a Colonial 30 with hot rod, lights and a few other upgrades. I saved my money for over a year to purchase it. I don't have the means or honestly the motivation to dump a $2500 safe because they gave out the code during an investigation. Same way I'm not going to dump my iPhone because Apple allowed the FBI in to some terrorist's device. I don't worry about life like that. Hell my info like almost everyone here is on the dark web. There is no way to stop it unless you never use banks, cards, have any accounts or loans or any other transactions. Just posting here on NWFA opens up risk of data breaches like any other web page. Nothing is that secure.

There seems to be always at least a few who really think the gov is interested in them. I do get a good laugh out of that. People think they are that important. When you read stories about someone getting into a jam with them one thing always comes to light if you dig. They were doing REALLY stupid and had to try real hard to get attention. Of course then most of them will throw up some kind of YT video or such saying they did nothing and watch out because they are out to get us. Every one of these I ever chase down the people were lying. They were doing super stupid stuff and finally got the attention they wanted. I work with one guy who is heavy into this. That Alexa is spying on me. I tell him good for them. Like they really have some human with nothing better to do that listen to what goes on at my house?
If the Feds show up wanting into your safe it is possible they of course are at the wrong house. If they are and you are not keeping stuff you know you should not have who the F cares? If they show up to me with warrant I would just open the damn things. An amazing number of people think they are FAR more important than they really are. Look at the idiots who do get caught doing stuff and how long they had to do so before the feds show up. A lot of people seem to take this paranoia to the point of me suspecting they need professional help.

 

[Kruel J]

There seems to be always at least a few who really think the gov is interested in them. I do get a good laugh out of that. People think they are that important. When you read stories about someone getting into a jam with them one thing always comes to light if you dig. They were doing REALLY stupid and had to try real hard to get attention. Of course then most of them will throw up some kind of YT video or such saying they did nothing and watch out because they are out to get us. Every one of these I ever chase down the people were lying. They were doing super stupid stuff and finally got the attention they wanted. I work with one guy who is heavy into this. That Alexa is spying on me. I tell him good for them. Like they really have some human with nothing better to do that listen to what goes on at my house?
If the Feds show up wanting into your safe it is possible they of course are at the wrong house. If they are and you are not keeping stuff you know you should not have who the F cares? If they show up to me with warrant I would just open the damn things. An amazing number of people think they are FAR more important than they really are. Look at the idiots who do get caught doing stuff and how long they had to do so before the feds show up. A lot of people seem to take this paranoia to the point of me suspecting they need professional help.

I agree. Honestly I have way better things to do than sit around paranoid about all of it. Life is short.

 

[Stomper]

General rule of thumb; wireless cameras all have security issues, but "cloud based" cameras are the worst of the lot. IP POE style cameras that talk to a base station/DVR are generally pretty good, especially if you run them over their own dedicated network and use open source firmware. Coax/cctv cameras are the best for local security but the options for open source firmware have become much more limited in recent years so it has become a bit more difficult to lock them down if you want to put the base station online. But they are still hands down the most secure if you do not plan on connecting it to the internet.

You don't have to change things every year, you just have to keep up on vulnerability updates. As with all things, if you outsource the management of the system you outsource the security too. If you want to be responsible for your own security you need a system that supports that responsibility, not removes it from you. I understand that these fancy cloud based solutions are super easy to set up and require basically no effort on the part of the consumer to do so, but that convenience comes with a price. In some cases that price is unauthorized people checking out your cameras and seeing what is going on whenever they feel like.

I run SimpliSafe cameras with my alarm… it's incredibly convenient, and if anyone "outside" looks through my outdoor cameras all they'll see is….