38 Special, How Low Can You Go?

[washagonian]

That doesn't sound like fun. Did you try pushing it out from muzzle end?

Good question.

Years ago (before my Rossi 92 squib) I had a squib in an old S&W 4" revolver. Of course the only option for a revolver (other than removing the barrel - which was beyond my skill level) is to push from the muzzle end. Tried that and projectile only moved a little, then just locked-up and wouldn't budge.

Took the revolver to a gunsmith for repair. He showed me the projectile. It was (originally) a TMJ flat point. The nose was smashed flatter and much wider (from my attempt to push it out). He said that - although it is possible to remove a squib from muzzle to chamber - you're fighting the rifling, widening the nose which also makes the projectile jam tighter into the barrel, etc. He recommended that, if possible, squibs be removed from the chamber, pushing the projectile out the muzzle .

I have a "friend" (cough, cough) who reloads and has had a "couple" of squibs over the years. He agrees. If possible, disassemble and remove the squib from chamber to muzzle.

Just my experience.

TWYLALTR

Cheers.

 

[arakboss]

Good question.

Years ago (before my Rossi 92 squib) I had a squib in an old S&W 4" revolver. Of course the only option for a revolver (other than removing the barrel - which was beyond my skill level) is to push from the muzzle end. Tried that and projectile only moved a little, then just locked-up and wouldn't budge.

Took the revolver to a gunsmith for repair. He showed me the projectile. It was (originally) a TMJ flat point. The nose was smashed flatter and much wider (from my attempt to push it out). He said that - although it is possible to remove a squib from muzzle to chamber - you're fighting the rifling, widening the nose which also makes the projectile jam tighter into the barrel, etc. He recommended that, if possible, squibs be removed from the chamber, pushing the projectile out the muzzle .

I have a "friend" (cough, cough) who reloads and has had a "couple" of squibs over the years. He agrees. If possible, disassemble and remove the squib from chamber to muzzle.

Just my experience.

TWYLALTR

Cheers.

What do you think caused the squib in rifle? What about in the revolver?

 

[quneur]

Sound is just compressed air. There are two factors to be considered: projectile speed and powder/gas conversion (pressure). Supersonic rounds create a Doppler effect (basically gathering of sound waves). Eliminate the projectile speed, you still have gas pressure to deal with.

A higher sectional density (aka wadcutters, flat point, etc.) will displace more air traveling supersonic speed (and which more pressure is needed) and thus louder. A more aerodynamic shaped projectile will need less pressure.

A ported barrel would also help as the pressure is dispersed.

 

[kmk1012]

When it comes to squibs, I've heard of people using a cardboard capped powder charge hot enough to shoot it out. I have NEVER tried this and do your own research before trying.

 

[washagonian]

What do you think caused the squib in rifle? What about in the revolver?

Reloading FU. Low or no charge. Maybe from a short stroke. Totally my FU.

Happened early in my reloading career and before I started using a powder checking die in my progressive press setup.

I use a Hornaday Powder-Cop die now and really like it.

 

[RVTECH]

What's the lowest charge weight in 38spl you have used and with what bullet?

The absolute lowest I have ever gone is 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 158 grain cast SWCs - and had one squib in a Taurus revolver - but this was after many years and 1000s of these loads being shot out of many diff guns - not just the Taurus.

I am currently looking at an old Lyman manual that is showing 2.0 grains for both 158 and 121 grain cast and showing 510 to 560 FPS velocity.

 

[arakboss]

When it comes to squibs, I've heard of people using a cardboard capped powder charge hot enough to shoot it out. I have NEVER tried this and do your own research before trying.

I think that could work. I guess it could also ring the barrel depending how far the bullet was from the chamber. I am tempted to try making a squib happen in a cheap aftermarket g19 barrel to try different methods of removing it.

 

[RVTECH]

Have you seen that .38 S&W 'Short' ammo?

Basically cut down .38 Special ammo.

Maybe you could find out what the length of the brass is and cut some down.

 

[arakboss]

Have you seen that .38 S&W 'Short' ammo?

Basically cut down .38 Special ammo.

Maybe you could find out what the length of the brass is and cut some down.

I read that the 38 S&W uses a wider bullet. I believe the 38 Long Colt case is essentially a short version of the 38spl case?

Skip to 10min mark in this video to hear expert address this.

View: https://youtu.be/CP1eGV2k5nU?feature=shared

 

[RVTECH]

I read that the 38 S&W uses a wider bullet.

Yes it does as .38 S&W is DIFF from the .38 Special SHORT.

I shot a couple rounds of it out of my 2" mod 60 a couple years ago. Almost like .22.

 

[arakboss]

Yes it does as .38 S&W is DIFF from the .38 Special SHORT.

I shot a couple rounds of it out of my 2" mod 60 a couple years ago. Almost like .22.

I could cut down a 38spl case but I am not sure what I would gain. If the low charges of Bullseye ignite and don't create some kind of SEE event, I should be fine. I may have to enlarge flash hole in cases with ultra low charges like Ed Harris suggested doing.


"My requirement was to develop one load which I could stock in quantity for use in any .38 Special revolver or "Cowboy Rifle." In my testing with current production Alliant Bullseye power, the lowest charge with the Remington, factory-swged, soft lead 158-gr. semi-wadcutter bullet which would exit the barrel every time (100 rounds, 50 each in rifle and revolver) was 1.2 grains of Bullseye, but only when used with a 3mm diameter enlarged flash hole.

This is about as large as you can go in a case which uses the small size (.175" / 4.45mm) primer. This charge didn't always exist when using a the unmodified 0.078"-0.082" (1.98-2.08mm) flash hole, 2 bullets out of 50 rounds fired in the 18" Marlin carbine lodged within 3" of the muzzle."

 

[RVTECH]

If the low charges of Bullseye ignite and don't create some kind of SEE event, I should be fine.

I don't believe I would go any lower than the 2 grains as shown in my Lyman manual, and no flash hole enlarging required.

560 FPS is getting pretty dang slow!

 

[kmk1012]

How fast is a slingshot? How loud is a slingshot?

 

[arakboss]

How fast is a slingshot? How loud is a slingshot?

I wonder if you could make a slingshot launch a projectile supersonic?

 

[2Wheels4Ever]

I loaded a 200gr pill over trailboss years back. In my 92 it was quiet. Really quiet. No squib issues. The drop wasn't a problem, but the poi shifted way to one side. It wasn't worth it to continue for me as I didn't want to adjust the sights just for some attempt at hearing safe shooting.

 

[Kruel J]

Done.


View attachment 1905785

You should try it with some lighter projectiles for reference. Curious if weight makes any difference to perceived sound. I don't see how, but it's interesting.

 

[aasbra]

I load and shoot 125 grain plated flat nose bullets over bullseye in 38 special. Some as low as 2.9 or 3 grains, sometimes as much as 3.5 grains. In my Henry single shot 38/357 (22" barrel) I'm pretty sure I've shot plenty of these to knock over steel at 100 yards. Never had a problem with a squib with this load (knock on wood). I don't recall if I've ever chronographed this load in the rifle, but it's accurate and consistent at 100 yards and is subsonic (no crack) when shooting at low elevation.

I did stick a Speer 190 or 200 grain total metal jacket bullet loaded in a 357 case in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy with a 24" barrel once. Wasn't published load data for what I was trying to do, so I think that I started low to be on the safe side. Had to pound it out when I got home. There is a lot more bearing surface (friction) on these heavier bullets when going down the bore. Needed to up the powder charge a bit more, or try a different powder.

 

[dangerranger60]

I used 2.5 gr of Trail Boss under a lead 105gr bullet to make 500 fps from a 2" barrel. Hogdens data says they used a 7.5" test barrel for 700 fps. This should easily work in a carbine length barrel. DR

 

[arakboss]

I used 2.5 gr of Trail Boss under a lead 105gr bullet to make 500 fps from a 2" barrel. Hogdens data says they used a 7.5" test barrel for 700 fps. This should easily work in a carbine length barrel. DR

I will be working with Trail Boss a lot more when it becomes readily available again. I am nursing the supply I have.

 

[arakboss]

I wish we had a lot more Ed Harris types around. They have all but been replaced by.....