National SCOTUS rules chevron doctrine is gone! ATF pees their pants

[ilikegunspdx]

Eh. Thats a bad thing, how?

I don't think they'll stop issuing opinions.

It just means they'll legally have to craft their opinions based entirely on what the law says and not what the law could say.

"Does this part or assembly make a gun fire automatically with a single function of the trigger"? If yes, MG. If no, not a MG, regardless of ROF or operation method.

"Is this barrel under 16 or 18 inches, or under 26" OAL, and does the firearm have a shoulder stock, designed to be fired from the shoulder?"

If yes, SBR/SBS. If no, not a SBR/SBS, regardless of how the device could be shouldered.

Let the Courts determine if the ATF or other Fed Agencies' interpretation of the laws, square with the Courts' own interpretation.

IMO, It's not that EVERY decision must go through the courts. It just means that WHEN an opinion or decision is challenged, and goes through the courts, the agency is no longer considered the only SME or given deference.

Agree with both these above. Countless cases where individuals and business prosecuted by the ATF have really no defense. They can't even present evidence because previously court had to defer to ATF "expertise". Think of all the people still trying to get their weapons back Fe. ATF just blows them off forever and if they go to court their attorneys just blow anyone out of the water for the most part. Cases don't even get off the ground.

In the future those prosecuted by the ATF will have a chance to present their case instead of ATF saying "only our opinion is relevant, therefore judge you must dismiss".

I agree ATF is going to have to think much more carefully about what they enforce against individuals and businesses because their nearly unbeatable trump card is gone now. Huge, huge win for individual's rights in America.

 

[wired]

Eh. Thats a bad thing, how?

I don't think they'll stop issuing opinions.

It just means they'll legally have to craft their opinions based entirely on what the law says and not what the law could say.

"Does this part or assembly make a gun fire automatically with a single function of the trigger"? If yes, MG. If no, not a MG, regardless of ROF or operation method.

"Is this barrel under 16 or 18 inches, or under 26" OAL, and does the firearm have a shoulder stock, designed to be fired from the shoulder?"

If yes, SBR/SBS. If no, not a SBR/SBS, regardless of how the device could be shouldered.

Let the Courts determine if the ATF or other Fed Agencies' interpretation of the laws, square with the Courts' own interpretation.

When you're trying to run a business and don't want to shell out thousands for lawyers to get answers on simple questions it makes a huge difference.

IMO the courts will determine what "designed to be fired from the shoulder" means. When that does happen , and it will, you aren't going to like the answer.

 

[PiratePast40]

When you're trying to run a business and don't want to shell out thousands for lawyers to get answers on simple questions it makes a huge difference.

A government agency wanting to save OUR money? I don't think so!

 

[wired]

A government agency wanting to save OUR money? I don't think so!

Determination letters have run 3 weeks or less. Ive done at least a dozen over the years going back to Ed Owens. Didnt cost me anything and I got the an answer I needed . Whats been your experience filing determination letters to tech?

What I see going forward is probably intransigence on the behalf of the ATF. You want an answer? Take it to court or wait until we take you to court to find out.

 

[PiratePast40]

I think that some people just like to argue, doesn't really matter what the topic is or who is right or wrong. Makes it even more fun if none of the people in the argument have any way of knowing the variables or correct answer.

Since that makes it like the pig/mud thing, I'll leave and let you argue with yourself.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Or you know, companies can simply read the laws and decide where their products fits within the law?

 

[Yarome]

IMO, It's not that EVERY decision must go through the courts. It just means that WHEN an opinion or decision is challenged, and goes through the courts, the agency is no longer considered the only SME or given deference.

Exactly! The ruling did nothing to change any agencies primary mandates nor strip them of all authority to operate under the congressional powers they have been granted.... as is being suggested. It seems kinda silly and an overdramatic interpretation that they either have ultimate power or none.

 

[wired]

I think that some people just like to argue, doesn't really matter what the topic is or who is right or wrong. Makes it even more fun if none of the people in the argument have any way of knowing the variables or correct answer.

Since that makes it like the pig/mud thing, I'll leave and let you argue with yourself.

Or when people people who have never been involved in the process and know nothing of how the ATF actually works are experts because they heard about the ATF on the internet.

 

[wired]

Or you know, companies can simply read the laws and decide where their products fits within the law?

And instead of getting a ruling from the ATF that absolves then essentially they can go to court , pay for the lawyers to possibly get them out of jail and then maybe or maybe not get a ruling in their favor
.

Tens, or hundreds of thousands of $$ actually. Ive know people who have gone to jail and faced huge fines for doing what they assumed was within the law . Not internet "know" either.

 

[CamoDeafie]

And instead of getting a ruling from the ATF that absolves then essentially they can go to court , pay for the lawyers to possibly get them out of jail and then maybe or maybe not get a ruling in their favor
.

Tens, or hundreds of thousands of $$ actually. Ive know people who have gone to jail and faced huge fines for doing what they assumed was within the law . Not internet "know" either.

So your solution is to make the ATF the authority that Courts must defer to?

My solution would be to dissolve/abolish the ATF, repeal all Federal level gun control laws, and allow States and private citizens to vote with their wallets on what small arms they want.

 

[Ginocide]

All the Congress people are gonna do, are to have the Agencies write the bills out, then give to the Congress people to "write and sponsor" and see if they'll make out of committees then to the floor for votes, thereby making run-around the overturning of Chevron deference by having the agencies directly write legislative bills for the Legislators to introduce, debate and vote on

That's still a massive improvement in my opinion. Agencies have been completely out of control with trying to legislate via arbitrary rule promulgation that changes on whatever whim of who's around that day. This puts an end to that and moves the power of legislation back to the legislative branch that's supposed to be the lawmakers and (at least supposed to be) representing the people's interests. What you wrote is basically how all bills are written anyway, so all this does is take away the ability for executive branch agencies to act like dictators over their subjectmatters, and force them to go through the proper processes. Agencies hate that because they often know that their decisions are so poor and so contrary to the will of the people, they know they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of passing the public scrutiny of the legislative process. The ATF is practically the posterchild of this because gun-control is so hotly contested, that they know any actual law change is likely to get gridlocked.

Imagine playing a cardgame where one player had the power to make up new hands and rules whenever they wanted, that's what's been going on.

 

[wired]

So your solution is to make the ATF the authority that Courts must defer to?

My solution would be to dissolve/abolish the ATF, repeal all Federal level gun control laws, and allow States and private citizens to vote with their wallets on what small arms they want.

Good luck with that. When you're running a business you need clear and consistent rules and when a question of law comes up, and they do frequently when you're basically operating on the edge of the law and what might or might not be legal because the law isn't well written or concise, you need answers and verification that what you think is within the law actually is...or isnt. Problem is that before you could go to the agency and get a ruling, or "opinion letter", that 99.999% of the time you'd go OK well, thats what it is and go about your business and make decisions based on their interpretation and opinion letter. What I see now is more like being hung out to dry. Go ahead, do what you want . If its illegal we'll let you know when we arrest you then you can plead your case in court. Thats what this looks like to me.

 

[CamoDeafie]

law isn't well written or concise

"Under 16" rifled barrel or 26" OAL, + designed to be shouldered =SBR"

"Under 18" smooth bore, or 26" OAL , + designed to be shouldered = SBS"

"Fires automatically with a single function of trigger= machine gun"

"Designed to be fired by one hand = handgun/pistol"

"Under 26" OAL= concealable"


Seems pretty clear and have been clear ever since both NFA 1934 and GCA 1968;

Seems only in last 12 years the "questions of laws" came up?

 

[wired]

"Under 16" rifled barrel or 26" OAL, + designed to be shouldered =SBR"

"Under 18" smooth bore, or 26" OAL , + designed to be shouldered = SBS"

"Fires automatically with a single function of trigger= machine gun"

"Designed to be fired by one hand = handgun/pistol"

"Under 26" OAL= concealable"


Seems pretty clear and have been clear ever since both NFA 1934 and GCA 1968;

Seems only in last 12 years the "questions of laws" came up?

Because you haven't been in the industry or haven't been paying attention.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Because you haven't been in the industry or haven't been paying attention.

So

What exactly is "not well written" about these laws?

 

[Tazman308]

Three years ago I wanted to purchase 3 Springfield Saint braced AR pistols. I was worrried about ATF rules and wanted to make sure I complied before making my purchase so I contacted them, got a letter saying braced AR pistols we legal. Fast forward a year and they changed their minds. I have $4500 invested into firearms that my family can't use defensively. Recourse NONE

I did everything to comply with their rules and then they changed their minds.

 

[wired]

So

What exactly is "not well written" about these laws?

Good example Designed to be shouldered. What does that mean? I can bring up a dozen examples of braces that pretty much look like stocks and would not really function as they were "designed" to work as braces. Just because you're putting a label on something saying it is a "brace" that was "designed" to accommodate all the one handed rifle erp pistol shooters out there ( That Ive never seen ) doesn't mean that isn't just BS made up to circumvent the law. Someones got to rule on that. Is it the ATF ? Not now. The Courts will rule on it. They probably will come up with something even more nonsensical than the ATF did.

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[CamoDeafie]

The Courts will rule on it. They probably will come up with something even more nonsensical than the ATF did.

Or they could rule that the SBR/SBS portion is unconstitutional and overturn that specific part of NFA but leave AOWs, MGs, DDs, silencers on there

 

[wired]

Or they could rule that the SBR/SBS portion is unconstitutional and overturn that specific part of NFA but leave AOWs, MGs, DDs, silencers on there

That could potentially occur.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

SCOTUS released what cases they will be hearing this fall and no 2A cases are on the docket. This was as predicted by mark smith. The Illinois AWB case is not done yet so it's no surprise they won't take that case. Yet. In future though they should nail judge easterbrook's balls to the wall with a big ol' hammer.

I didn't watch video explaining the news but here it is if anyone is interested:

View: https://youtu.be/4jTzMSONvwo?si=Fe-GTdwQfeYZPUZo