Alphabet no knock warrant shootout, agent and homeowner injured

[nwslopoke]

It's getting worse with bureaucrats. Until there is a proper adjustment and the cost of lives or penalties are too high, we've seen a constant elevation of these tactics. I think it started when the state granted itself permission to confiscate drug properties.

Now, when some agency screws it up, the tax base pays and the agent gets a medal so their superior doesn't look bad.

It would be great if we could elect a local DA that would say, not in my town. Get the wrong house or shoot the chihuahua, the agent or whoever is in charge will pay.

 

[lucusloc]

You may not do that but there are plenty of folks out there that don't want to but they will stand their ground and fight back, mostly the older crowd.

In my line of work, I've worked with retired LE and a high percentage would fight back…….. ya these are retired cops and they would take care of business because they have seen a lot and are aware how the government wheels turn.

Just sayin, and just to be clear, I am not saying I would fight back or go full Rambo mode on LE. I am a peaceful human but I will fight if cornered

Lets not forget the Branch Davidians won the first engagement. Their subsequent treatment and extermination for that embarrassment have lead many to advocate for the "Waco rules of engagement" which basically boil down to "show no mercy, for you will be shown none." This could account for how the feds are much more wary of starting a large scale standoff again (e.g. Bundy Ranch).

Federal law enforcement has an "image problem," and I think they know it. This means there are quite a lot of people out there willing to fight under the right circumstances. I think the feds know they cannot afford another drawn out standoff, as that give them time to become besieged themselves, as those people who are willing to fight start showing up for that fight. This means a lot more quick, direct actions that are over fast, and damn the cost. Which of course does not help with their continued image problem.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I was just reading this and thought same thing, stinks bad. Brother said he was a gun person and had lot of them. If Feds felt he had something he should not why they needed to kick the door is beyond me. Walk up to him at work, say we have warrant, are going to search. STRONGLY suspect they wanted to play cowboy, kicked in the door, he woke up and thought it was home invasion. If this is as I suspect, they stepped on their johnson playing cowboy they will no go into full cover up mode and start lying.

It's a fine line, indeed. No-knocks are dangerous to both parties. But "knock knock, open up FBI we have a warrant" gives a potential suspect time to dispose of any contraband.

 

[The Heretic]

It's a fine line, indeed. No-knocks are dangerous to both parties. But "knock knock, open up FBI we have a warrant" gives a potential suspect time to dispose of any contraband.

The issue is, with very few exceptions - there should be no such thing as contraband.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

The issue is, with very few exceptions - there should be no such thing as contraband.

Agree. Just a convenient way of saying "things the government nanny doesn't think we should have."

 

[Yarome]

.... gives a potential suspect time to dispose of any contraband.

Well. An alphabet raid, I think it's highly unlikely any risk exists that someone will attempt to flush their firearms, mags and ammo down the toilet. Right(?)

I do think no-knocks are sometimes appropriate. IE., multiple perps with a violent history, known to be armed, have quick trigger fingers and likelihood to violently resist arrest.

Stacking officers/agents in full riot gear on no-knock raids into the long established homes of otherwise law abiding citizens with no criminal history? That's just mass over escalation without merit. As we've seen. People can die when there was absolutely no reasonable cause for it.

 

[lucusloc]

Agree. Just a convenient way of saying "things the government nanny doesn't think we should have."

Agreed, the government should be in the business of regulating behavior not objects. Murder is a behavior, not a thing. We should not be using things as a proxy for behavior.

If we think that storing a ton of ANFO in the basement of an apartment complex is a Bad Idea I am all for a law or regulation banning such behavior. I am not for a law or regulation banning owning a ton of ANFO, as that presupposes I will not be storing or using that stuff in a safe and responsible manner. Furthermore I think that even if we thought a ton of ANFO was a dangerous enough object to warrant keeping track of, the burden for that should fall on the society that thinks it is worth tracking, not the individual who may have a use for the stuff. I would tolerate a regulation that said I needed to send a letter to some regulatory body if I wanted to store a ton of ANFO on my land, but any cost or burden past that (inspections, licensing approvals community notices etc.) should be born at taxpayer expense, and if there were objection to my storage of said ANFO that would have to be adjudicated buy a court. The regulatory agency could advise me that my storage of said substance was a clear violation of established and legally binding safety regulations and that I will lose upon examination of the case by a judge, but that regulatory enforcement must still go trough the proper judicial review, including a presumption of innocence for the accused and the presentation of argument and counterarguments by both sides. The only exceptions I would tolerate to properly adjudicated enforcement are case of clear and present danger to third parties (of which trying to move a ton of ANFO into the basement of an occupied multi-residency structure would probably apply).

There are way to enforce sane laws and mitigate risky behavior without trampling basic rights to self determination. We started the shift to that paradigm over 200 years ago, and have been backtracking ever since. It may be time to see if we can move the gold standard once again.

 

[Alexx1401]

It's a fine line, indeed. No-knocks are dangerous to both parties. But "knock knock, open up FBI we have a warrant" gives a potential suspect time to dispose of any contraband.

How are they going to get rid of guns? I could understand the "fear" when the "war on drugs" started. People would flush drugs down the crapper. This guy was "supposedly" selling guns illegally. They had guns he bought, then sold, showing up at crimes. So what exactly is he going to "get rid of"?
They also knew where he worked. Was some kind of important person. So again why was it they could not walk up at work and say "we have warrant, come with us". This entire tale they are telling smells worse than fish sitting in the sun for days to me. This kick in the door while people are sleeping only has two possible reasons. They desperately wanted to play cowboy, or they were hoping to kill him. I have to "hope" it was just that they were kids who never grew up and wanted to play cowboy.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Epstein strikes from the world beyond:

Radiologist who drove wife and kids off cliff was having psychotic break and thought children 'could be trafficked', doctors say

Radiologist who drove family off a cliff was having a psychotic break, doctors say

Dharmesh Patel had delusions about Jeffrey Epstein and the war in Ukraine, doctors testified at his trial this week

www.independent.co.uk

Before I clicked, I knew it was a Tesla.

Only reason I clicked was to confirm that.

 

[Yarome]

A few more details came to light during the congressional hearing today.

IE., They taped over his ring camera, cut all power to the home and although it's alphabet policy for agents to wear bodycams when conducting such raids, out of 10 cars of agents present... not a single bodycam was in use.

According to the family's attorney, they were both asleep at the time and knew nothing until the door was knocked in. The husband went to investigate, but the normally well lit front part of their home was dark, they could only see figures entering their home and the husband fired 2 rounds into the floor to attempt to scare the intruders back out of their home when he was subsequently shot in the head.

In 35 degree weather the wife was barefoot and had little on (sleepwear), and was held in an alphabet vehicle for over 4 hours. They denied her requests for clothing or to use a neighbors bathroom while waiting. Not that it's particularly pertinent and I would imagine they had the heat on in the vehicle, but kind of lends itself to illustrate the disregard the alphabet has toward citizens.

It also came to light that the alphabet had assembled to execute their search warrant (not an arrest warrant) a week prior, but called it off once they learned the man wasn't at home.

His presence in the home isn't required to serve a search warrant so it kinda makes you wonder why they would cancel an operation already assembled and in progress simply because of that small detail, hu(?)

Jim Jordan's opening congressional statement where some of these details were disclosed. Taking with a grain of salt that some of the narrative is coming from the families attorney statement. IOW, "their" side of the story.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgS2OGLuILE

 

[Sxsnuf]

If he fired 2 rounds into the floor before being shot in the head, how did 1 of the jackboots get wounded??
Friendly fire perhaps?
Let's forget for a moment that warning shots are just plain STUPID!

 

[CamoDeafie]

A few more details came to light during the congressional hearing today.

IE., They taped over his ring camera, cut all power to the home and although it's alphabet policy for agents to wear bodycams when conducting such raids, out of 10 cars of agents present... not a single bodycam was in use.

According to the family's attorney, they were both asleep at the time and knew nothing until the door was knocked in. The husband went to investigate, but the normally well lit front part of their home was dark, they could only see figures entering their home and the husband fired 2 rounds into the floor to attempt to scare the intruders back out of their home when he was subsequently shot in the head.

In 35 degree weather the wife was barefoot and had little on (sleepwear), and was held in an alphabet vehicle for over 4 hours. They denied her requests for clothing or to use a neighbors bathroom while waiting. Not that it's particularly pertinent and I would imagine they had the heat on in the vehicle, but kind of lends itself to illustrate the disregard the alphabet has toward citizens.

It also came to light that the alphabet had assembled to execute their search warrant (not an arrest warrant) a week prior, but called it off once they learned the man wasn't at home.

His presence in the home isn't required to serve a search warrant so it kinda makes you wonder why they would cancel an operation already assembled and in progress simply because of that small detail, hu(?)

Jim Jordan's opening congressional statement where some of these details were disclosed. Taking with a grain of salt that some of the narrative is coming from the families attorney statement. IOW, "their" side of the story.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgS2OGLuILE

Wait, what. This confirmed it was a Search Warrant and not an arrest warrant?

What.
The.
Actual.
Foxtrot.

Clearly an excessive use of force. They (ATF) meant to execute the guy it seems.

 

[Yarome]

If he fired 2 rounds into the floor before being shot in the head, how did 1 of the jackboots get wounded??
Friendly fire perhaps?
Let's forget for a moment that warning shots are just plain STUPID!

That's why I said "taking with a grain of salt" their attorney's statement. The details have been vague, but supposedly the agent was hit in the shoulder and the alphabet's side of the story was that it was not due to friendly fire.

Ya have to take that with a grain of salt too. From what I've seen, no medical records have been released confirming an agent was even hit by gunfire, where the agent was hit, or who's gun the bullet came from.

Not releasing that info in and of itself could be considered a bit suspect. I mean... if it's true that Malinowski shot and hit an alphabet agent... you would think the alphabet would be releasing clear evidence of that since it would only help their narrative that it was a clean kill.

 

[Yarome]

Wait, what. This confirmed it was a Search Warrant and not an arrest warrant?

What.
The.
Actual.
Foxtrot.

Clearly an excessive use of force. They (ATF) meant to execute the guy it seems.

Yup. Further back in the thread there is a link to the actual search warrant and affidavit submitted to obtain it. It was clear from the get go.. it was only a search warrant.

They announced yesterday that the Kansas state police concluded their investigation into the shooting. They didn't release/link the full report, but as part of the announcement by their officials, they also confirmed that the alphabet was only authorized a search warrant as part of their investigation.

 

[Yarome]

I also got a chuckle when viewing the full hearing and The Diddler was asked why non of the agents had body cams. He blew it off as a budgetary issue.

They can afford a year long investigation. They can afford making multiple purchases from the guy. They can afford expensive tracking equipment and months of monitoring. They can afford 10 cars and the agents in full riot gear to fill them... just to execute a simple search warrant... but we are to believe a feeb agency can't afford even a single body cam?

 

[Sxsnuf]

"The Diddler was asked why non of the agents had body cams. He blew it off as a budgetary issue."

I think we need to start a 'go fund me' for the poor, unfortunate, underfunded jackboots.
I'll donate 8 pairs of used Costco boot socks and a couple old windows that my wife has been bugging me to get rid of.
I'll deliver them to the Hatfield Fed building in land!

 

[lucusloc]

A few more details came to light during the congressional hearing today.

IE., They taped over his ring camera, cut all power to the home and although it's alphabet policy for agents to wear bodycams when conducting such raids, out of 10 cars of agents present... not a single bodycam was in use.

According to the family's attorney, they were both asleep at the time and knew nothing until the door was knocked in. The husband went to investigate, but the normally well lit front part of their home was dark, they could only see figures entering their home and the husband fired 2 rounds into the floor to attempt to scare the intruders back out of their home when he was subsequently shot in the head.

In 35 degree weather the wife was barefoot and had little on (sleepwear), and was held in an alphabet vehicle for over 4 hours. They denied her requests for clothing or to use a neighbors bathroom while waiting. Not that it's particularly pertinent and I would imagine they had the heat on in the vehicle, but kind of lends itself to illustrate the disregard the alphabet has toward citizens.

It also came to light that the alphabet had assembled to execute their search warrant (not an arrest warrant) a week prior, but called it off once they learned the man wasn't at home.

His presence in the home isn't required to serve a search warrant so it kinda makes you wonder why they would cancel an operation already assembled and in progress simply because of that small detail, hu(?)

Jim Jordan's opening congressional statement where some of these details were disclosed. Taking with a grain of salt that some of the narrative is coming from the families attorney statement. IOW, "their" side of the story.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgS2OGLuILE

The ATF wanted this guy dead. Change my mind.

Now as to why? Probably did not want to take this to court and actually have an opinion granted on their policy, and they suspected this guy might have "seen it through to the end" and not take a plea deal. Shooting him was easier and who cares if they lose a wrongful death case? No one will get in trouble and it's not their money.

You want this to stop? It's not going to until Civil War II because no one in government will keep anyone else in government criminally accountable for their actions.

 

[Alexx1401]

The more I hear about this the more I have to think they went in with the idea of killing the poor guy. Always take stories like this with a lot of salt but, its getting hard to believe this was just incompetence. Its looking more and more like they went in with the idea of killing the guy. Sadly nothing will happen to those who did this.

 

[Diamondback]

The more I hear about this the more I have to think they went in with the idea of killing the poor guy. Always take stories like this with a lot of salt but, its getting hard to believe this was just incompetence. Its looking more and more like they went in with the idea of killing the guy. Sadly nothing will happen to those who did this.

Take this in parallel with details of the Mar-A-Lago raid... and it paints the picture of a police state frantically chasing its Reichstag Fire or Fort Sumter moment.

 

[rjmt]

The ATF wanted this guy dead. Change my mind.

Now as to why? Probably did not want to take this to court and actually have an opinion granted on their policy, and they suspected this guy might have "seen it through to the end" and not take a plea deal. Shooting him was easier and who cares if they lose a wrongful death case? No one will get in trouble and it's not their money.

You want this to stop? It's not going to until Civil War II because no one in government will keep anyone else in government criminally accountable for their actions.

so does this mean if the ATF fabricates a warrant to raid my place, they don't need a NO KNOCK warrant, they can shoot my watch geese and farm dogs first, then break in my doors? Just so happens I have metal doors with steel frames on all entrances, so they have justification to use heavy equipment to break in the metal frames and doors and since my disabled wife sleeps in the living room in her medical bed, but has a Smith 686 under her pillow, they are justified in shooting her first before my son or I respond to the noise?