National Legality of selling reloads.

[arakboss]

Save the discussion on the wisdom of buying or shooting reloads for another thread. This thread is for relaying cited sources of BATF or other law information regarding legality of selling reloads.

I have bought many reloads from members here and believe they have all sold them legally. If you have info that refutes this belief please change my mind. Here is the easiest source that backs up my belief.

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]

www.atf.gov

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[Alexx1401]

This is done a lot, has been as long as I have been around. Now as for the "law" this is where it always gets murky. Before the net came along I had rolled and sold ammo to a few buddies who did not roll. Back when we mortals were not allowed to just order ammo. The catch here is who defines what is too much if some Fed takes notice of the seller? In this day and age I can't for the life of me see the point in doing it. Unless its for some hard to find, rare kind of ammo that is pretty much only available by rolling it. Even then the seller is kind of poking the bear for what gain?

 

[arakboss]

This is done a lot, has been as long as I have been around. Now as for the "law" this is where it always gets murky. Before the net came along I had rolled and sold ammo to a few buddies who did not roll. Back when we mortals were not allowed to just order ammo. The catch here is who defines what is too much if some Fed takes notice of the seller? In this day and age I can't for the life of me see the point in doing it. Unless its for some hard to find, rare kind of ammo that is pretty much only available by rolling it. Even then the seller is kind of poking the bear for what gain?

I am pretty sure none of the sellers I bought from were doing it as a business or for their livelyhood. Some of the reloads looked like they have been sitting around for decades. I have fired some of the 9mm reloads I bought and so far I have all my finger and facial features intact.

 

[Alexx1401]

I am pretty sure none of the sellers I bought from were doing it as a business or for their livelyhood. Some of the reloads looked like they have been sitting around for decades. I have fired some of the 9mm reloads I bought and so far I have all my finger and facial features intact.

I certainly was not doing it to make a living but, like when we could still sell guns to others who decides the magic number? When we could still sell guns I did a few here and there. Some did a lot more. Now and then someone would get on the wrong side of the Feds. One constant was the idea of what was "too much" was always arbitrary. Basically it always looked to me like someone got attention for some reason and the Feds would use this as a reason. The problem with some laws like this is when its so arbitrary its also very hard to defend if for some reason you get some official mad at you. I am sure a LOT of people still do this and to each his own. To me it just seems like needless poking the bear.

 

[oremike]

When I retired I did so knowing I wanted to make a little ammo and sell it to support my compeditive shooting. Notice I didn't say make a living at it. As I looked into what it took to be legal and make a small profit I realized that if I made ammo and sold it at cost I didn't need an FFL. As soon as I added the "and then some" to the price I needed both insurance and an FFL. I couldn't get the insurance with out the FFL. With that documentation I decided to be more than a casual reloader and am now in fact a manufacturer or remanufacturer depending on if I use new brass or not. When I got my ATF inspection prior to getting issued my Class 06 FFL the agent said I did everything exactly right. Others can quibble about what is "too much" and all that but to me it was not worth my house to not have the insurance so once in, I decided to be all in.

 

[EHJ]

I have a small concern that I encountered a while back...

Bought a bunch of what appeared at first to be new old stock of various boxed ammo... old stuff.
Most sealed still - some not so much.

Realized later that a few boxes were actually reloads repacked in old stock boxes.

 

[arakboss]

I have a small concern that I encountered a while back...

Bought a bunch of what appeared at first to be new old stock of various boxed ammo... old stuff.
Most sealed still - some not so much.

Realized later that a few boxes were actually reloads repacked in old stock boxes.

Some of the old rounds I bought could be factory or reloads. I will treat them as reloads and shoot'em up.

 

[echo1]

Not certain of the technicallty, but I believe if the listed ammo is sold as "components only" (even if complete boolits) it circumvents the manufacturing aspect, or muddies the clear application of the statue. PAX

 

[deadeye]

Save the discussion on the wisdom of buying or shooting reloads for another thread. This thread is for relaying cited sources of BATF or other law information regarding legality of selling reloads.

I have bought many reloads from members here and believe they have all sold them legally. If you have info that refutes this belief please change my mind. Here is the easiest source that backs up my belief.

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]

www.atf.gov

If the reloader is selling for a profit or livelihood then they need a license. Most guys sell them as components and usually give a warning they should be torn down and reused as a CYA. I have reloaded for relatives and some friends but most pay for the components used or provide them. Over the years this has been debated a lot and the only info ever mentioned is the need for a license if doing it for profit/ livelihood. I really dont think I could make/ produce enough to actually make a livelihood out of it. It's going to take a rather large investment to be able to make that much especially after paying for the liability insurance you would need. Maybe @oremike can chime in between batches..........

 

[wired]

You cannot make ammo to sell without an 06 FFL.. You can sell ammo you have made for personal use. I'd much more concerned with liability insurance.

 

[oremike]

My insurance runs just under $200.00/month. So not an outrages amount, but I do need to make at least that much profit or pay it out of pocket.

 

[arakboss]

Not certain of the technicallty, but I believe if the listed ammo is sold as "components only" (even if complete boolits) it circumvents the manufacturing aspect, or muddies the clear application of the statue. PAX

That is the silliest part of this and I can't find anything that backs up the idea that you can make an illegal act legal by saying you are selling them for components.

 

[Nosferatu]

Not certain of the technicallty, but I believe if the listed ammo is sold as "components only" (even if complete boolits) it circumvents the manufacturing aspect, or muddies the clear application of the statue. PAX

That phrasing is used to relay to the buyer that the loads are reloads (or from unknown origin) and should be fired at the buyers risk. It's not to fulfill a legal requirement.

 

[CLT65]

Various issues are brought up and hashed out online from time to time, with varying degrees of accuracy. It's nice to see a thread like this with so much accurate info on this subject.

I was at a gun show a while back, and there was a table with a bunch of ammo in zip-lok bags, marked "reloads for components" or some such. As I was standing there, another guy was looking at the ammo. I overheard his buddy telling him to not buy it, because it was dangerous and illegal, and the seller was probably going to get arrested for selling reloads. As technically inaccurate as that was, it was probably good advice, since the price was about new price. I would absolutely trust reloaded ammo from a licensed, insured professional like Mike, but not some random guy at a gun show.

You cannot make ammo to sell without an 06 FFL.. You can sell ammo you have made for personal use. I'd much more concerned with liability insurance.

Exactly. Selling old reloads you don't use anymore, for a gun you no longer have, inherited, or something you acquired from an estate; legally no problem. Sell them all you want, but be careful who you sell them too, and make sure they know what they are, because if great-uncle Fred's "hot magnums" blow up your neighbor's gun, and he needs to pay some hospital bills...

Here's what I do with unknown random ammo that I've accumulated over the years, and this is just mostly rifle calibers. If it's clearly factory ammo I'll use it or pass it on to someone who can, but anything questionable gets pulled down for components:



Yes, I know; what am I going to do with all these bullets? I do use a few now and then, but mostly they just accumulate. My kids will probably sell them for scrap a few decades from now.

 

[Alexx1401]

I have a small concern that I encountered a while back...

Bought a bunch of what appeared at first to be new old stock of various boxed ammo... old stuff.
Most sealed still - some not so much.

Realized later that a few boxes were actually reloads repacked in old stock boxes.

Now that I would not shoot. If I did not know the person who rolled them so well I trusted my guns and even life with? No way I would fire that stuff. Either pull it apart for parts or just trash it. Rolling is dead simple but, its also dead simple to screw it up to the point of some real catastrophe.

 

[RVTECH]

Here's what I do with unknown random ammo that I've accumulated over the years,

I used to have an 'accumulation' that looked just like this!

I finally separated out what I knew I would never use and gave or traded it away and essentially eliminated my 'collection' of random bullets!

 

[echo1]

That is the silliest part of this and I can't find anything that backs up the idea that you can make an illegal act legal by saying you are selling them for components.

I didn't mean as a guy selling ammo out of his trunk to make a living, I meant as a guy selling off loads he had/made then maybe switched calibers, or whatever...PAX

 

[Alexx1401]

That is the silliest part of this and I can't find anything that backs up the idea that you can make an illegal act legal by saying you are selling them for components.

This is like so many "gun laws". There is a never ending bunch of people who come to the net to ask "can't I get around this law by..................". NFA, sales after states pass BGC laws, ammo, you name it. People will come to the net saying "well if I do this" I can get around the law right? When people tell them no they will ask the same question different ways. Wanting someone to tell them what they want to do is OK. Often its because they know they are pushing things and poking the bear. So they want to get others to tell them what they are doing in going to be fine.

 

[arakboss]

@Joe Link
I think it would be prudent for forum management to implement a specific rule regarding sale of reloads in the classifieds and specifically how/where they should be listed. It appears the current view of mods is that listing them can be a violation of Rule #1 because selling them described in one manner is a violation of the law while it is not a violation of law describing them in a different manner. I personally believe this is nonsense but it would help people follow the rules if there is a rule in place that is easy to understand. @deadeye and @Camelfilter should be able to help put this rule together.

 

[aksu747]

Pretty sure there wouldn't be so many places online selling reloads if it was illegal.
That said I would not shoot any reloads unless I knew who reloaded them personally.
I have shot reloads but only because my dad's friend had offered me 800 or so reloads he had sitting in his garage if my first handgun ended up being the RIA .45 1911 I was looking at for $400, way back in 2011.(been a fan of 1911's ever since)