How many fpe is needed to kill big game animals?

[Koda]

No it's not what they use, most use min impact velocity or jsut impact velocity...and I also knew what he was getting at. Thats the point and why I was trying to help him understand the correct language if he discussing terminal ballistics. Not sure why it was met with such denial.

I had asked you what the correct label was and you never answered, now I find out you knew what I meant the whole time. I never once denied your knowledge or experience but you criticized my opinions as "not understanding the basics and not wanting to learn" when you knew what I meant the whole time and still could not answer my question that Nosferatu clearly did.

FWIW Nosler uses "optimal performance velocity". I dont think the label matters much or is standardized.

 

[Koda]

I also have read that the requirement is 1000fpe for deer. I've also been taught that fpe is a terrible way to judge the effectiveness of a bullet...

Ive also been taught that too and recently questioned that in a different thread. FPE is a good metric for penetration not bullet expansion, I think confusion enters when people leave out velocity from the subject because you cant have energy without the velocity.
At the end of the day, I still question if 1000fps is needed for deer size game. I dont know how to estimate the minimum though, we would have to know what the minimum penetration requirement is I think?

 

[osprey]

On deer, I would say with good shot placement in a behind the shoulder situation,as little as 200 fpe is probably enough. My pellet rifle will be quite overkill at 400 fpe.

 

[Koda]

On deer, I would say with good shot placement in a behind the shoulder situation,as little as 200 fpe is probably enough. My pellet rifle will be quite overkill at 400 fpe.

Thats a bit below my threshold.
I would want at least the bullet to make it to the farside of the hide even if it hit a heavier shoulder bone, it should punch thru. My wild guess would be at least 600fpe min to assure pass thru in all situations.

 

[osprey]

Thats a bit below my threshold.
I would want at least the bullet to make it to the farside of the hide even if it hit a heavier shoulder bone, it should punch thru. My wild guess would be at least 600fpe min to assure pass thru in all situations.

What is that based on? While I would never try to hit large shoulder bone, I believe at 400 fpe a shoulder bone hit would still be lethal. A 300 gr slug going 800fps will go through a 4x4.
Of course I will not go into the field until I have thoroughly vetted the setup which will include meat/bone targets.

 

[Koda]

What is that based on? While I would never try to hit large shoulder bone, I believe at 400 fpe a shoulder bone hit would still be lethal. A 300 gr slug going 800fps will go through a 4x4.

At the very close ranges your working with, your probably fine and correct. My guess is influenced more on typical public land distances which can be anything out to (hate to say it) the calibers "terminal velocity"
I also factoring in human error, I wouldn't purposely aim for a shoulder bone but if your not quite perfect in the field and thats where you hit, I want that bullet to pass thru the bone not deflect.

 

[Cape_hunter]

I had asked you what the correct label was and you never answered, now I find out you knew what I meant the whole time. I never once denied your knowledge or experience but you criticized my opinions as "not understanding the basics and not wanting to learn" when you knew what I meant the whole time and still could not answer my question that Nosferatu clearly did.

FWIW Nosler uses "optimal performance velocity". I dont think the label matters much or is standardized.

Fair enough and note i did apologize for not being more clear.
Fwiw nosler also uses optimum performance velocity, and minimum impact velocity. We are both On the same page more then not.
Cheers.

 

[solv3nt]

Terminal velocity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Koda]

Fair enough and note i did apologize for bot being more clear.
Fwiw nosler also uses optimum performance velocity, and minimum impact velocity. We are both On the same page more then not.
Cheers.

No worries, one thing I did learn from this is "terminal velocity" isn't an industry label and does have a different real definition (see Solvents link above, I saw that searching yesterday...). Im very open to using the correct label it just seems like it varies with bullet makers. Doesn't help that most bullet makers don't even advertise what it is so new shooters (handloaders) have less of a chance of understanding it, it would be important to use the correct term.

probably "minimum velocity" is most accurate except its abbreviates the same a muzzle velocity. Oy...

 

[Cape_hunter]

No worries, one thing I did learn from this is "terminal velocity" isn't an industry label and does have a different real definition (see Solvents link above, I saw that searching yesterday...). Im very open to using the correct label it just seems like it varies with bullet makers. Doesn't help that most bullet makers don't even advertise what it is so new shooters (handloaders) have less of a chance of understanding it, it would be important to use the correct term.

probably "minimum velocity" is most accurate except its abbreviates the same a muzzle velocity. Oy...

True. Every bullet maker wants to have the latest and greatest. Sadly we live in the time of catch phrases so they all try and have the catchy-ist to go with it... lol. Lots of over complication when it's just not needed.

Since thisbis the hunting forum, if you ever get a chance, check out hammer bullets. Good stuff and great company.

 

[Koda]

Since thisbis the hunting forum, if you ever get a chance, check out hammer bullets. Good stuff and great company.

Ive recently switched to Hammer bullets in all my hunting rifles. Very good stuff there.

 

[lucusloc]

FPE is just one variable of many that make for a humane kill. Shot placement, bullet design, hell even variables outside your control like (as mentioned before) if the animal is hopped up on adrenaline or not. Under ideal condition you can take a deer with an airgun.

What energy gets you (if you pair it with the right bullet and shot placement) is more margin for error. More energy means more potential tissue damage which in turn means a faster and more humane kill. This is of course assuming that you get that energy roughly where it needs to go.

How much margin for error you want is, again, surrounded by a lot of variables. How good a shot are you really, is your firearm know to produce a lot of flyers that can put your shot a few inches (or more!) off of the intended POI? Do you hunt in marginal locations with a lot of brush? How tolerant are you of a botched shot that only wounds the animal (and no, that can never be "zero", if you hunt you have some tolerance for wounding and losing the animal. If you want that to be zero you want to run a farm, not a hunt).

All these variables means everyone's numbers will be different.

As for me? I look less at FPE and more at ballistics; what is my drop at that range, and how much can I expect from the terminal performance out that far and at that angle? If you get too far out with a round the vertical element of the velocity gets too high, and that amplifies the margin of error making what would be a near hit to the POI at a closer range into a rather larger miss out at the extreme. That is where we exit my comfort zone, much more so than any concerns about delivering enough energy to the target. For this reason I do think that 150 is pushing it with 357mag. If I was super comfortable with that gun and that ammo I would probably have the confidence to make a shot at that range, but I rarely hunt with the same gun more than a few times so I would never really be able to say that I would have that level of familiarity and confidence with it. I try to stay well within the performance envelope of any platform I use simply because I do not use them enough as individual pieces to really know how far I can trust them.

As hunters we really need to set our pride aside and make an objective evaluation of our capability and our familiarity with our equipment. If you have shot the same platform for decades and know exactly where it will hit every time then you can push it further than someone like me who basically buys a new gun every season. And that is before we even get to relative shooting skill, issues with age and vision and all the other variables. If we let our pride get in the way and start thinking we can push to the ragged edge of a new gun, or we want to take a shot we probably could have made in our 20s (but we are in our 70s now) or we just want to get a linger shot than our buddy regardless of circumstances, well that is when our pride starts coming before the welfare of the animal and we make unnecessary mistakes. Don't be like that, swallow your pride and only take the shots you know you can make, not the shots you think you can make.

 

[huntpotter]

Just search Ron Spomer outdoors on YouTube and you will know everything there is to know about the subject.

Ron Spomer makes me feel uncomfortable. It might be the mustache, or it might be the name.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Ron Spomer makes me feel uncomfortable. It might be the mustache, or it might be the name.

I have learned a TON from his videos.

 

[Koda]

Huge fan of Ron Spomer myself and also have learned a lot there. Not certain what hes shared that is controversial?

 

[lucusloc]

Huge fan of Ron Spomer myself and also have learned a lot there. Not certain what hes shared that is controversial?

I think the main objection is that his channel name indicates he is a Spomer, and that is just not acceptable in polite society. I did not see any objection to his actual content.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Never had much use for most gun writers / gun You Tubers myself.
I have found that many ( not all ) of them...love to hear themselves talk and love to "prove" themselves to be correct.

And yes I know that the above is extremely subjective and up for all manner of so called debate.
Andy

 

[osprey]

Here is the line up I will try in my little ol' pellet gun, from lightest to heaviest.

 

[Paolung]

The .357 mag lever gun thread had many opinions on whether it is enough for deer out to 150yds. I say it is and if it were all I had I wouldn't hesitate to use it. There are many opinions about what is minimum to cleanly take a big game animal so let's hear how many fpe you think it takes to cleanly kill?

1) .357 Magnum lever gun, assuming good shot placement and proper load/bullet choice, is fine at that range, under good conditions.

2) If you have a projectile with 5000 foot pounds of energy, but it slips right through your target and doesn't dump but 1% of that energy in the target, 99% of that huge number of foot pounds of energy is wasted (you only dumped 50 ft pounds). So, "energy" is but one component, of which there are many, of what's going on. Velocity, penetration, expansion, shot placement, ballistic coefficient, sectional density, what you're actually shooting (deer, bear, etc.) all matter in the big picture. There are probably some I forgot to mention as well.

All that said, there seems to be a common understanding that around 1000 foot pounds is a good generalized number for what it takes, assuming all the other factors are in place.

 

[Koda]

Here is the line up I will try in my little ol' pellet gun, from lightest to heaviest.

View attachment 1835202

So are you asking about minimum fpe because you would like to hunt deer with an air rifle?