Oregon Oregon Magazine Shipping/Selling

[lucusloc]

Sorry I am a bit behind, I have been AFK since the end of last week. Just got everything updated, keep it coming.

Dealers must figure 114 has gone through if they won't ship to Oregon.

114 did go through and the law is now on the books. The only thing preventing enforcement is judicial action, and that kind of thing can change on a moment's notice. This makes shipping to Oregon legally perilous as the shipper/seller has no way to confirm/guarantee that the magazines will still be legal when they arrive. They also have no way of knowing how law enforcement will treat the new magazines, as the only ones that the law guarantees will be grandfathered in are the mags owned prior to the law passing.

This is not a problem for most people who gain possession of mags during the court ordered stay of the law, because how is law enforcement really going to prove that someone did not own that specific magazine prior to the law going into effect? But that issue becomes way easier if they intercept a package en-route. That may not be such a big issue for the buyer, since they never actually had possession, but it becomes a huge issue for the seller who now is caught shipping in explicitly contraband items. If law enforcement decides to press charges they simply have no defense.

This is why I do not blame companies that are not shipping to Oregon, I fully understand doing so is taking a huge risk and gambling that the courts will keep the law on hiatus. While I think there is a pretty good chance the courts will do just that, that is nothing more than opinion, and not something I would expect a company to agree with. This is why we should appreciate the companies that do ship here right now, they have taken upon themselves a not insignificant legal risk to keep us supplied with wares our political masters have decided we should not have.

 

[Jade Falcon]

Sorry I am a bit behind, I have been AFK since the end of last week. Just got everything updated, keep it coming.


114 did go through and the law is now on the books. The only thing preventing enforcement is judicial action, and that kind of thing can change on a moment's notice. This makes shipping to Oregon legally perilous as the shipper/seller has no way to confirm/guarantee that the magazines will still be legal when they arrive. They also have no way of knowing how law enforcement will treat the new magazines, as the only ones that the law guarantees will be grandfathered in are the mags owned prior to the law passing.

This is not a problem for most people who gain possession of mags during the court ordered stay of the law, because how is law enforcement really going to prove that someone did not own that specific magazine prior to the law going into effect? But that issue becomes way easier if they intercept a package en-route. That may not be such a big issue for the buyer, since they never actually had possession, but it becomes a huge issue for the seller who now is caught shipping in explicitly contraband items. If law enforcement decides to press charges they simply have no defense.

This is why I do not blame companies that are not shipping to Oregon, I fully understand doing so is taking a huge risk and gambling that the courts will keep the law on hiatus. While I think there is a pretty good chance the courts will do just that, that is nothing more than opinion, and not something I would expect a company to agree with. This is why we should appreciate the companies that do ship here right now, they have taken upon themselves a not insignificant legal risk to keep us supplied with wares our political masters have decided we should not have.

Full disclosure: I'm not a business owner, an FFL, or a firearm-parts seller of any sort, nor have I ever been any of these things.

But it seems to me nobody should care if you live out of state and you ship to a state that can't come after you.....or can they?

I've just never understood why some folks online selling mags don't just give the finger to the State and sell it anyways. But again: see my first line.

 

[lucusloc]

Full disclosure: I'm not a business owner, an FFL, or a firearm-parts seller of any sort, nor have I ever been any of these things.

But it seems to me nobody should care if you live out of state and you ship to a state that can't come after you.....or can they?

I've just never understood why some folks online selling mags don't just give the finger to the State and sell it anyways. But again: see my first line.

Because the state can still come after you, they just need the cooperation of the other state and federal courts to enforce it. Nothing in our legal system prevents enforcement of state laws across state lines, all it does is set up a rather painful mechanism to enact such enforcement. I am sure Oregon would have no problem navigating that painful legal process to go after sellers in other states. Hell, half the government critters who would be in charge of that project would probably get off on all the convoluted bureaucracy necessary for such an endeavor.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Full disclosure: I'm not a business owner, an FFL, or a firearm-parts seller of any sort, nor have I ever been any of these things.

But it seems to me nobody should care if you live out of state and you ship to a state that can't come after you.....or can they?

I've just never understood why some folks online selling mags don't just give the finger to the State and sell it anyways. But again: see my first line.

One word. Liability . State could, and probably would go after out-of State sellers, FFLs, shops for facilitating "import of contraband" items. State would very likely sue in-State shops/sellers for continuing to sell "contraband magazines", if not outright arrests and shutting them down.

 

[Camelfilter]

One word. Liability . State could, and probably would go after out-of State sellers, FFLs, shops for facilitating "import of contraband" items. State would very likely sue in-State shops/sellers for continuing to sell "contraband magazines", if not outright arrests and shutting them down.

Great point - FFL's. Many online also sell firearms, so a part of those companies legal algorithm might include avoiding risks around having there FFL's pulled.

No idea if such is a thing/could be a thing - pulling a dealers FFL for selling banned NON FFL items across state lines.

 

[Loc]

Great point - FFL's. Many online also sell firearms, so a part of those companies legal algorithm might include avoiding risks around having there FFL's pulled.

No idea if such is a thing/could be a thing - pulling a dealers FFL for selling banned NON FFL items across state lines.

You can bet your a$$ FJB's AFT will go after them.

 

[lucusloc]

Great point - FFL's. Many online also sell firearms, so a part of those companies legal algorithm might include avoiding risks around having there FFL's pulled.

No idea if such is a thing/could be a thing - pulling a dealers FFL for selling banned NON FFL items across state lines.

Probably not. The liability is in getting sued by a state government in federal court for violation of that state's laws. That can result in judgements that expose the business to the full penalties provided for in the state law, including jail time.

Now enforcement of that jail time will probably require the cooperation of the business's home state, but considering state-to-state extradition is built into our federal legal system by default it would take a significant political act in that home state to block such an extradition. Not impossible (it has happened before) but certainly rare enough to be noteworthy.

And all of that is assuming there is not a way to enjoin federal law enforcement in the enforcement action. Those guys get to ignore most sub-federal boundaries and can take anyone anywhere so long as they have a court order stating they can do so.

 

[GrayGoose]

Just declare your house a sanctuary home for undocumented ammunition feeding devices.
It worked for them, so it should work for us too.

 

[CamoDeafie]

You can bet your a$$ FJB's AFT will go after them.

I'm genuinely curious. When did Federal agencies have the job of enforcing State laws, not just Federal laws?

Civil suits and Federal interstate commerce laws, yes, but going after people for violating a different State's laws from their own? Isn't that the province of State law enforcement agencies (State police)?

Edit then there's that "Equal Protection" clause in Federal laws

 

[lucusloc]

I'm genuinely curious. When did Federal agencies have the job of enforcing State laws, not just Federal laws?

Civil suits and Federal interstate commerce laws, yes, but going after people for violating a different State's laws from their own? Isn't that the province of State law enforcement agencies (State police)?

Edit then there's that "Equal Protection" clause in Federal laws

Shipping across state lines is explicitly an interstate commerce act. Other states respecting local state law is a presumed aspect of legal reciprocity, and is why sometimes states can get injunctions against other states for laws that would impact interstate commerce (e.g. that time California got slapped down for some new livestock law that would have ruined interstate trade in food products).

The feds are more than willing to assist with such enforcement if it benefits their agenda. They can also be compelled to assist if a state can enjoin them to do so in a federal court.

 

[CamoDeafie]

So.. maybe certain States like Texas, Idaho, Montana, and so forth.. ought to bring a lawsuit against other States for violating "Equal Protection" clause and for reinforcing lawful interstate commerce of firearms and accessories as well as carry laws? might be a good time to bring that specific fight to SCOTUS before Thomas retires.

Edit. Basically "what's lawful to purchase and possess in one State should be lawful in the 49 other States".

 

[GrayGoose]

The feds are more than willing to assist with such enforcement if it benefits their agenda.

A government Of the People, By the People, For the People...
Got it.

 

[CamoDeafie]

A government Of the People, By the People, For the People...
Got it.

Only if the "right" ("correct" thinking) people , otherwise all others are "criminals and unlawful"

 

[lucusloc]

Only if the "right" ("correct" thinking) people , otherwise all others are "criminals and unlawful"

This does seem to be the default position of the feds. "Freedom is what we say it is, if you don't agree you are a tyrant (for resisting our tyranny)."

 

[OldBroad44]

Sorry I am a bit behind, I have been AFK since the end of last week. Just got everything updated, keep it coming.


114 did go through and the law is now on the books. The only thing preventing enforcement is judicial action, and that kind of thing can change on a moment's notice. This makes shipping to Oregon legally perilous as the shipper/seller has no way to confirm/guarantee that the magazines will still be legal when they arrive. They also have no way of knowing how law enforcement will treat the new magazines, as the only ones that the law guarantees will be grandfathered in are the mags owned prior to the law passing.

This is not a problem for most people who gain possession of mags during the court ordered stay of the law, because how is law enforcement really going to prove that someone did not own that specific magazine prior to the law going into effect? But that issue becomes way easier if they intercept a package en-route. That may not be such a big issue for the buyer, since they never actually had possession, but it becomes a huge issue for the seller who now is caught shipping in explicitly contraband items. If law enforcement decides to press charges they simply have no defense.

This is why I do not blame companies that are not shipping to Oregon, I fully understand doing so is taking a huge risk and gambling that the courts will keep the law on hiatus. While I think there is a pretty good chance the courts will do just that, that is nothing more than opinion, and not something I would expect a company to agree with. This is why we should appreciate the companies that do ship here right now, they have taken upon themselves a not insignificant legal risk to keep us supplied with wares our political masters have decided we should not have.

I don't understand why a company's shipping mags to Oregon right now while it is not illegal is a huge risk. They are paid before mags are shipped. If law changes while mags are in transit they have done nothing illegal. They have records that show their shipping dates. Perhaps they should have a statement in info for buyers saying they are not responsible for mags seized in transit because of state changes in gun laws or activation of or enforcement of gun laws.

 

[solv3nt]

I don't understand why a company's shipping mags to Oregon right now while it is not illegal is a huge risk. They are paid before mags are shipped. If law changes while mags are in transit they have done nothing illegal. They have records that show their shipping dates. Perhaps they should have a statement in info for buyers saying they are not responsible for mags seized in transit because of state changes in gun laws or activation of or enforcement of gun laws.

It is currently illegal. Period. Fortunately for us, there is a judicial hold.

 

[GrayGoose]

It is currently illegal. Period. Fortunately for us, there is a judicial hold.

Which is why folks shouldn't be boasting online about the magazines they've ordered over the last several weeks/months.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Ordered some mags form PSA late last night and the already shipped.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I don't understand why a company's shipping mags to Oregon right now while it is not illegal is a huge risk. They are paid before mags are shipped. If law changes while mags are in transit they have done nothing illegal. They have records that show their shipping dates. Perhaps they should have a statement in info for buyers saying they are not responsible for mags seized in transit because of state changes in gun laws or activation of or enforcement of gun laws.

It is currently illegal. Period. Fortunately for us, there is a judicial hold.

As of Dec 8th, 2022; no one in Oregon should have been able to buy from out of State; magazines with greater than 10rd capacity, magazines of less than 10rd capacity that have removable base plates or bottoms, and also; firearms without an Oregon purchase permit (was there any language in M114 about the specifics of permit to purchase starting when?)


Edit. It is technically a massive amount of civil disobedience, large enough that State may think twice before starting to enforce and prosecute owners for buying things between Dec 8th 2022 and now.

 

[OldBroad44]

It is currently illegal. Period. Fortunately for us, there is a judicial hold.

Huh?
I think sometimes a judicial challenge means the law goes into or stays in effect until the issue is resolved and sometimes it means the law does not go into effect or is cancelled until the issue is resolved in court depending on what exactly the judge says.

My understanding is that a hold was put on the going into effect if 114, so it is currently completely legal for us to buy high cap mags and legal for sellers to sell them to us.

But I'm no lawyer. Any lawyers want to weigh in on this specific question? Is it currently legal for Oregonians to buy high cap mags?