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Short AR 15 Build
- Thread Starter env0y
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20" barrel, rifle length gas tube w/an A5 intermediate or A2 rifle buffer system.
Nope.
Iron sights & a flash light.
Go get 'em, Tiger.
Nope.
Iron sights & a flash light.
Go get 'em, Tiger.
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The shortest barrel for the parameters you stated would be 10.5" - 11.5". Me personally, 11.5" is the best compromise. The CAR15's we carried in the Army were 11.5", it provides enough velocity to still be effective, and enough dwell time at the gas port for more reliable cycling of the action. Standard issue today is the M4 carbine with a 14.5" barrel.
Remember, anything under 16" barrel length (non-permanently attached muzzle devices don't count) is an SBR and (currently) requires a $200 NFA tax stamp.
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This.
Repeated & embiggened for OP.
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556 is also LOUD for home defense, especially once getting into sub 16" barrels. Not dissuading you, just trying to be realistic (if you're puking from ringing ears after one shot indoors, you're probably not able to defend yourself well).
I'd start considering a suppressor, even if new to the NFA stuff, as you'll likely end up leaning into it later and rebuilding half your host weapon down the road. Plus the wait times are insanely fast right now.
Either way, i'd look into a 10.3/5-12.5" build with h2/h3 or a5 buffer for reliable cycling. Look into gas port sizes if you're planning to run suppressed. I've had shoddy reliability with drop in (encased) triggers on sbr builds, likely from how dirty the lower gets.
I'd start considering a suppressor, even if new to the NFA stuff, as you'll likely end up leaning into it later and rebuilding half your host weapon down the road. Plus the wait times are insanely fast right now.
Either way, i'd look into a 10.3/5-12.5" build with h2/h3 or a5 buffer for reliable cycling. Look into gas port sizes if you're planning to run suppressed. I've had shoddy reliability with drop in (encased) triggers on sbr builds, likely from how dirty the lower gets.
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Agree on the 10.5" minimum for reliability. For me 12.5" is ideal (because it's only 13% energy loss vs 18" but much handier). This chart show loss of energy as a % loss of 18" barrel energy (blue line is 300BLK the others are 5.56). You can see that 7.5" has massive losses while 12.5" loses only 13%.
Also note that if you go with a brn-180, foxtrot Mike bufferless, sig mcx, or jakl you can shoot with stock/brace folded or collapsed cuz there is no buffer. This reduces the size massively for transport or in vehicle use, while not lowering the barrel size at all.
Some 10.5" brn-180 pics to show size. Total length is only about 1" more than an mp5 when both have their stocks folded.
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Re legalities, as stomper said <16" barrel with either a stock or front vertical grip it needs to be registered as an sbr. <16" barrel with a brace and no front vertical grip can be a regular pistol (currently anyway).
Re optics, personal preference imo. I personally think red dot is the most versatile for shooting everything except long range, and is the smallest and lightest.
Others prefer a prism scope which is bulkier and heavier than red dot (but lighter and more compact than an Lpvo) but usually has less eye relief. Lpvo is awesome in terms of shooting paper or long range and can be used as a red dot at 1x power. I put an Lpvo on my brn-180 10.5" and the weight and the size of it is too big for the compact nature of the gun Imo. I'll probably go back to just a red dot similar to that shown in the pics above but for target shooting the higher power and clear optic is sure nice. And for tracking/ targeting moving targets at variable ranges it is just superb. All just imo.
This video may be helpful. They go into optimum setup for an AR in terms of length and optics. That bearded guy really knows his stuff Imo. And it's from actual special forces operators who have used them in combat.
View: https://youtu.be/84KBHdpKB1c?si=mNob4AQo-GbWrODe
Re optics, personal preference imo. I personally think red dot is the most versatile for shooting everything except long range, and is the smallest and lightest.
Others prefer a prism scope which is bulkier and heavier than red dot (but lighter and more compact than an Lpvo) but usually has less eye relief. Lpvo is awesome in terms of shooting paper or long range and can be used as a red dot at 1x power. I put an Lpvo on my brn-180 10.5" and the weight and the size of it is too big for the compact nature of the gun Imo. I'll probably go back to just a red dot similar to that shown in the pics above but for target shooting the higher power and clear optic is sure nice. And for tracking/ targeting moving targets at variable ranges it is just superb. All just imo.
This video may be helpful. They go into optimum setup for an AR in terms of length and optics. That bearded guy really knows his stuff Imo. And it's from actual special forces operators who have used them in combat.
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For home use you may want to see if you can rent or try one first. The shorties are SHOCKINGLY loud inside. If you decide to go this way I would try to keep a set of muffs that allow you to hear normal noise along with the little gun.
I'll chime in and agree on the 10.5" as a minimum. 11.5-12 does give you a bit more velocity and dwell time. Under 100yrds though I don't think the velocity is as critical of a concern.
Optics, I do prefer a reflex on that size. It's just less bulky, lighter, and keeps the sight picture open which is nice for closer quarters, IMHO.
Legalities, it's true you need a $200 stamp if you want to put a stock on it, but a stabilizer or pistol tube is still a viable option. With a tax stamp comes other regulations/restrictions and subject to 'rifle' regs vs. 'pistol' regs. If you're going the SBR route, to be aware, technically, you need to complete your Form 1 approval prior to purchasing components.
Optics, I do prefer a reflex on that size. It's just less bulky, lighter, and keeps the sight picture open which is nice for closer quarters, IMHO.
Legalities, it's true you need a $200 stamp if you want to put a stock on it, but a stabilizer or pistol tube is still a viable option. With a tax stamp comes other regulations/restrictions and subject to 'rifle' regs vs. 'pistol' regs. If you're going the SBR route, to be aware, technically, you need to complete your Form 1 approval prior to purchasing components.
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I'd prefer a suppressed 300 blackout for this, but since you specified 5.56, a M4 Mk18. A Block II with a 1.5" pinned & welded muzzle device if you want to stay out of NFA territory or use a stupid brace.
I have a PWS MK111 since I prefer piston driven rifles. I understand wanting to keep it DI though for parts availability, especially if it's your only rifle.
Whatever you get, suppress it.
I have a PWS MK111 since I prefer piston driven rifles. I understand wanting to keep it DI though for parts availability, especially if it's your only rifle.
Whatever you get, suppress it.
He means... as opposed to being stupid to pay $200 to submit your photo, full fingerprints and personal info into the feeb firearm registry, be subject to additional regulations and make resell of your firearm more difficult....
.... for the exact same firearm.
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No, he means having a functional stock instead of a flimsy rubber dildo intended to circumvent BS laws.He means... as opposed to being stupid to pay $200 to submit your photo, full fingerprints and personal info into the feeb firearm registry, be subject to additional regulations and make resell of your firearm more difficult....
.... for the exact same firearm.
I'm not a dealer. I don't buy guns to resell. Nor is there anything difficult about selling an SBR.
I can guarantee you, folks looking to buy an $800 firearm for $1000 and the additional paperwork, time and regulations that go along with it is a much small pool of buyers than those looking to buy an $800 firearm for $800 and only involves a simple BGC.
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There's no additional paperwork to sell an AR-15 SBR, unless you want there to be.I can guarantee you, folks looking to buy an $800 firearm for $1000 and the additional paperwork, time and regulations that go along with it is a much small pool of buyers than those looking to buy an $800 firearm for $800 and only involves a simple BGC.
It's as simple as removing the short upper and selling the lower. If you really want, you can put a 16"+ upper on it and sell it as a complete rifle. No NFA involved.
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For my 556 I did 10.5 and with a 6" can it is not very loud. Hearing safe for a few rounds in a defensive situation.
11.5 seems to be the best for short length but maintaining decent velocity.
But my primary home defense gun and what I'll suggest to you is a 8-10" ar in 300 blackout. Very maneuverable even with a can, stupid quiet and reliable with subsonic ammo, and you can switch to supersonic if you want distance for plinking. It's my favorite gun to shoot by far and I have some awesome guns.
Red dot or prism on shorties for me. 1-3x max
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As for the the whole sbr with a stock vs pistol with a brace....
I dont knock anyone for whichever they decide to go with. Both are cool.
All my shorties have the sba3 brace and it feels fine to me. Sure it's not as solid as a brace but I can run it fine. To me, the stock just isn't worth it, if shtf and gun laws are no longer a concern I can easily swap out my brace for a stock.
I dont knock anyone for whichever they decide to go with. Both are cool.
All my shorties have the sba3 brace and it feels fine to me. Sure it's not as solid as a brace but I can run it fine. To me, the stock just isn't worth it, if shtf and gun laws are no longer a concern I can easily swap out my brace for a stock.
We were talking about selling an SBR, but you're right. You can part it out. The alphabet considers the receiver as the SBR, but you can contact the alphabet and do the paperwork to have the SBR removed from the registry... and then sell it as a title 1 firearm.
You can also have it removed from the registry and reconfigure it to 16"+... if your a person that has a spare upper laying around.
You can't sell it reconfigured without having it removed though or you'll be transferring an NFA without a Form 4. It could also create problems for the buyer if there is a stock on it and they happen to have a short barrel upper in their possession.
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I have lots of short guns with stocks (sbrs) and lots with braces. They are 6 in one half dozen the other.
12.5" pistol with adjustable brace
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It's completely voluntary. You don't NEED to 'remove' it from the registry if it's no longer configured as an SBR.
Too bad you can't buy uppers from anywhere. Again, this would be a personal decision. Maybe it sells faster, maybe not. I don't know. It's simply an option. There is still no requirement to 'remove it from the registry'. The act of reconfiguring is enough for it to no longer be an SBR.
Wrong. Flat out. Just bubbleguming wrong.
No it doesn't. It's just another rifle. What the buyer has going on is his business. It has nothing to do with the sale.
I've seen you try to argue up and down about NFA stuff on other threads and it's clear you either don't have any experience with this stuff, or you just like to argue.
I don't consider myself an expert, but have done enough NFA things to have some experience. I've sold 2 SBR's (Both AR variants), 3 full-autos and an SBS. It can be confusing, but mostly because some like to wax poetic about bubblegum they don't understand.
And I've seen a few like you try and pass off what you can likely get away with and what you want the rules to be flap their face holes around the whole, "If you don't agree with me you obviously don't know what you're talking about" BS.
By the letter of the law and what the alphabet has said about it doesn't necessarily mean it will ever get you in trouble to do otherwise or that they even have any way of enforcing it if they wanted to. What is technically legal and what isn't though doesn't change just because it's not "likely" to ever come back and bite you.
That still doesn't make it good form trying to tell others "it's perfectly legal".
You are right that it's not mandatory to update the alphabet if you reconfigure. Transferring it is a bit different, but obviously.... you have God's pipeline to the alphabet and nothing I say will cause you to reconsider what you think you know so...
You do you
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