6 Dead, Dying, and Soon-To-Be-Obsolete Handgun Cartridges

[Koda]

IMO if I had to rely only on ball FMJ pistol ammo for my life in combat it would be the 45 over a 9mm anyday. The military made the better choice back then and it proved itself for the longest service life of any pistol.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I didn't remember the specifics, just that there were a lot military trials around that same time, in several countries. From what I could find, it appears that the 9mm came about because the German military wanted something more powerful than the .30 Luger, like you say.

I was just pointing out that though the .45 acp was indeed developed later, it was the performance of the earlier .45 Colt that the U.S. military wanted, that they eventually got in the acp.

I've always found it interesting that the U.S. went with the big .45 when so many other countries went smaller. I know the Philippines campaign had a lot to do with it, but I've often wondered if another influence was the fact that earlier American big-bore revolvers were developed as "horse pistols" capable of stopping a horse, and that thought was ingrained in the American perspective. Maybe the Europeans only cared about stopping people, not horses. Just a thought.

Fwiw I remember Othias at candarsenal
Said standard 38 revolver didn't have enough stopping power in phillipenes (post Spanish am war) against attackers with spears and us was comfortable with 45LC in SAA so they went to 45 acp in next cartridge. In other words they went from 45LC to 38 to 45 acp. I think he said 45 acp also used in 1917 revolvers with moon clips to keep common cartridge.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The Impetus for 9mm Luger was still the German Military not the US. It was fairly common knowledge (from what I've read) that the US wanted 45 for their next pistol so offering a (perceived at the time) underpowered 9mm was more for getting them interested in the design, Luger would go on to make 45 cal pistols for the trials that would yield the m1911.

I think those Luger pistols in 45 were in crazy high demand by collectors as I recall. Then the guy in Colorado? Started remaking Lugers in 45 and other calibers in limited quantities. His 45 Lugers still cost a lot. He made Lugers in .357 sig and some other calibers too as I recall.

 

[DeanMk]

Colt had it's own 9mm prior to the 45 acp called the 38 acp. One can surmise that was being looked at for Military use but they decided to go with the 45 cal bullet and the rest is history.

The 1892 turned the US Army off to the concept of a .38 caliber sidearm (I've heard the idea originated from the belief that the .38 Colt round was seen as more civilized than the .45 Colt).
The .38 ACP was eventually "magnumized" into the .38 Super.

 

[DeanMk]

I think those Luger pistols in 45 were in crazy high demand by collectors as I recall. Then the guy in Colorado? Started remaking Lugers in 45 and other calibers in limited quantities. His 45 Lugers still cost a lot. He made Lugers in .357 sig and some other calibers too as I recall.

AFAIK, Luger only ever made two .45 acp Luger pistoles.
One was a back-up to the other, for testing purposes by the US Army.
Not sure if that was the Army's request or not, but a distant voice way in the back of my head says it was.

 

[oremike]

The .38 ACP was eventually "magnumized" into the .38 Super.

Not true, the original 38 acp was detuned after it was cracking frames after a while in the 1900 Colts. That was the impetus for JMB to look to developing the 1911 but the military wanted 45 caliber bullets as we all know. So after WW I the 38 acp was revisited and found to work well in the 1911 style firearm with the original loading. They called the pistol the Colt Super Automatic and the ammo 38 Super to differentiate it from the dimensionaly identical 38acp.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

AFAIK, Luger only ever made two .45 acp Luger pistoles.
One was a back-up to the other, for testing purposes by the US Army.
Not sure if that was the Army's request or not, but a distant voice way in the back of my head says it was.

Ah I see thx. 2 sounds reasonable since they were just for trials as I understand it but perhaps they made some for other countries too I don't know. I had to look up the guy that made the 45 acp and .357 ones. He was out of CA not CO. Don't know why I had CO on the brain. John Martz is his name. Ian has a video on him. Some of his guns are pictured below. Unbelievable talent that guy imo.

Also there is some dude in PA making 45 Lugers now. Not sure how the PA guy is doing it. I know martz remade complete guns using many original Lugers. But the PA guy is also making them in 10mm which is pretty cool.






Luger 10mm hunter version from PA guy

Standard size one

 

[DeanMk]

Not true, the original 38 acp was detuned after it was cracking frames after a while in the 1900 Colts. That was the impetus for JMB to look to developing the 1911 but the military wanted 45 caliber bullets as we all know. So after WW I the 38 acp was revisited and found to work well in the 1911 style firearm with the original loading. They called the pistol the Colt Super Automatic and the ammo 38 Super to differentiate it from the dimensionaly identical 38acp.

The .38 Super is a higher pressure loading of the .38 ACP cartridge.
It was developed in the 1920's at the request of law enforcement, who needed a handgun round that could penetrate car bodies (thicker back then, than today).
It was a popular chambering for the 1911 (especially the lightweight version of the Commander), partly because it could hold more rounds than the .45 version (from a time before double stack magazines became popular).

 

[DeanMk]

Ah I see thx. 2 sounds reasonable since they were just for trials as I understand it but perhaps they made some for other countries too I don't know. I had to look up the guy that made the 45 acp and .357 ones. He was out of CA not CO. Don't know why I had CO on the brain. John Martz is his name. Ian has a video on him. Some of his guns are pictured below. Unbelievable talent that guy imo.

Also there is some dude in PA making 45 Lugers now. Not sure how the PA guy is doing it. I know martz remade complete guns using many original Lugers. But the PA guy is also making them in 10mm which is pretty cool.

View attachment 1045767

View attachment 1045775
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Luger 10mm hunter version from PA guy
View attachment 1045787
Standard size one
View attachment 1045810

Do you realize one of the "Luger" pistoles you show in your post is a Walther P-38?

 

[titsonritz]

Was .38 Super ever brought up?

I think it is still fine south of the border, it has always been popular there.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Do you realize one of the "Luger" pistoles you show in your post is a Walther P-38?

Yes, one of the coolest ones he made imo. I believe it had same 16 or 16.5" barrel length as the Luger carbine.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[JRuby]

I think it will be an awful long time before the 40S&W is gone. There are simply too many good pistols out there and they aren't blowing up like predicted

 

[oremike]

The 40 dieing myth is propagated by those internet warriors that can't believe there are any other calibers except 9mm/223 or any guns other the Glocks and AR's. IMHO there is no one and done but there are lots of choices out there. Bottom line, I sell all the 40 S&W and 9mm I make as well as 30 other calibers.

 

[21tango]

I think it will be an awful long time before the 40S&W is gone. There are simply too many good pistols out there and they aren't blowing up like predicted

I agree! Don't see the 40 cal going anywhere. A ton of police trade ins still available at good prices. Not to mention it's a very effective round against the human anatomy. No real downside to the round. Higher capacity than a 45 and harder hitting than a 9mm with less recoil than a 10mm. Lots of upside! Hmmm….. might have to pick one up lol

 

[Longwalkhome]

Just opinion but what kills a cartridge quickest is the high cost to buy it. Guys will shoot 9mm all day at 26 cents but 45 colt or 44 mag at a dollar a round won't be shot near as much. Meaning low cost makes a round popular.

Sometimes I find pricing odd. 223 which is a high powered rifle round is cheaper than 357 mag. I suspect that most guys that shoot 357 reload for it so the manufacturer doesn't sell enough factory ammo to make a profit.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Glad this thread came back, I've noticed 40S&W is much less common now and 10mm has taken its place! I see 10mm everywhere. It's one of the reasons I picked up a 10mm.

Very surprised 40S&W has tapered off, at least from what I've seen.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[Yarome]

Just opinion but what kills a cartridge quickest is the high cost to buy it. Guys will shoot 9mm all day at 26 cents but 45 colt or 44 mag at a dollar a round won't be shot near as much. Meaning low cost makes a round popular.

Sometimes I find pricing odd. 223 which is a high powered rifle round is cheaper than 357 mag. I suspect that most guys that shoot 357 reload for it so the manufacturer doesn't sell enough factory ammo to make a profit.

I don't particularly buy into that. It's in larger part the other way around, IMHO.

I don't believe many people make EDC choices based solely on the cost of the ammo to run them. Moreso on the firearm and caliber characteristics. It does remain a considering factor, in small part (cost and availablility), but mainly just on how often you train with them.

It's only when the market abandons the chambering that you'll see a caliber meet it's demise.

 

[Yarome]

Glad this thread came back, I've noticed 40S&W is much less common now and 10mm has taken its place! I see 10mm everywhere. It's one of the reasons I picked up a 10mm.

Very surprised 40S&W has tapered off, at least from what I've seen.

10mm is the shiny new kid on the block and makes sense that demand is going to remain higher for awhile. I dunno about it outright taking the place of .40 though. It's in a different class that doesn't significantly overlap enough to shut out the .40.

I mean... I like my 10mm just fine and all. It has it's purpose, but my EDC's largely remain .40's and not a single 10mm. Backcountry sidearm...yeah. I can see that.